Avoid Playing 'Flop Poker' & Other Tips

[GainerRakeback]

If you play at the lower level stakes cash games, like many of us, you've probably played "Flop poker." This typically means 3-7 players limp in hoping to see a cheap flop. Hence, 'flop poker." Those that hit the flop, or a draw, will bet or call, and the rest immediately fold. This isn't really poker at all, but just gambling - hoping to get lucky. The higher stakes you play, the less you see this style. More often than not at higher levels a raise is made preflop and only quality starting hands are played.

Here's my basic beginners advice*:

(1) No Flop Poker. Avoid playing 'flop poker' since you're only going to get as lucky as everyone else playing that style and in the long run break even. It's okay to limp the big blind. And you should almost ALWAYS fold the small blind except with a very premium starting hand. It's a losing position, period. You'll be surprised how much you 'win' (ie save) by not completing the small blind hoping to get lucky. Money not lost is money won.

(2). NO MICRO. Dont play micro levels like .05/.10 or lower. Those players play any two cards, chase everything, play bad starting cards, and you'll just get frustrated by the bad beats, and then do dumb things. A little higher level will pay off.

(3) ALWAYS RAISE PREFLOP. If you decide to play a hand, always enter it raising, even if you're playing 9 10. First, this represents to other players strength in your hand. If you hit the flop, great. If not, you have implied strength since you raised preflop. Second, the point of raising isn't just to build the pot. It's to reduce the number of players in the hand to heads up, or two others at most. The more players in, the more likely someone else hits the flop. You don't want to be in a hand post flop with 4 others. And you can't give the big blind a free flop - make them pay to play with you.

Your odds of winning the hand go up dramatically if you raised preflop with only a few in the hand post flop.

(4) CONTINUATION BETS. Always make a continuation bet. Should be 1/2 pot at least. If you're heads up and played 9 10 and the flop comes A 8 3 and your opponent played KQ, if you bet you have this 'fold equity' the pros talk about. This is the power to win a hand without having the best hand by betting and getting your opponent to fold. By raising preflop, you represented strength. By betting he'll likely think you have a range like AK, AQ, AJ. Most good players won't chase a King here and call a flop bet. They should think "Even if I hit my King, will I be ahead in the hand if he has an Ace?" If he re-raises or calls, then see #4 below, but you may have to fold giving him credit for a Ace. (3a). Most low stakes players play Ace/ anything, especially suited, so be careful if an Ace hits the flop. Higher stakes players don't usually play Ace/rag.

We've all seen players raise preflop, then check the flop. That screams "I missed." Sure, clever players may check a strong hand, so see #4 below again. And don't just min. bet post flop either. That says: "I missed and want to see another card cheap." If you're tagged as checking whenever you miss the flop, you're telling the table your cards.

(5) KNOW THY ENEMY. Get to know the players at your target table before you sit down. This means observing for 30-60 mintues and taking notes. Some players you may have notes on already. Don't rush to play. The object is to win money and good players won't give it up easy. What range does each player raise with? How much? Does it differ based upon the starting cards? Good players will always raise the same amount to disguise their range of starting hands. Does a player always limp in and never raise? Some will limp with AK all the time. Does Player A always check if he misses the flop? Does Player B always make a continuation bet if he misses. Does Player C always min. bet defensively when he misses the flop to see the next card cheap? Does Player D always check when he hits to disguise his hand? Does Player E play practically any two cards? People are creatures of habit and do what is in their comfort level. This information is vital to winning.

You'll need to see a lot of hands because to get this info since you'll need to see players' hole cards which doesn't always get that far.

(6) MAX BUY-INS. Always buy-in for the max (or 100 x BB) at your table such as $25 at a .10/.25 table, $50 at a $.25/.50 table, or $200 at a $1/2 table. Even if you have no intention of losing that much, you need to be seated with it. When a player buys in for $3 at a .05/.10 ($10 max) table, that tells me he has no confidence in his game, he expects to lose, and he'll be all-in on the third hand he plays. There's just not enough room for variance when you buy in short. When I see it, I think fish. You also can't win much if you dont have much to start. Short stacked players have no intimdation factor, only fish factor. A player who's won and is sitting with twice the max buy in just looks like he's good. The point is don't look like a fish - look like you're there to win.

-Good Luck.

(6.5) * This is just based upon my experience - others may and likely will have their own thoughts. And I'm not metioning proper starting hands - just read the books. I will say though, mix it up now and then with for example "1 gap'rs" such as 8 10. It disguises a made straight when you hit and can win big.

[irishpkr]

Very solid advice for the most part IMO :P

Some things I'd like to add in bold:

Originally Posted by GainerRakeback (1) No Flop Poker. Avoid playing 'flop poker' since you're only going to get as lucky as everyone else playing that style and in the long run break even. It's okay to limp the big blind. And you should almost ALWAYS fold the small blind except with a very premium starting hand. It's a losing position, period. You'll be surprised how much you 'win' (ie save) by not completing the small blind hoping to get lucky. Money not lost is money won. As you say, playing a very tight range from the SB is best, you should be playing pretty much as tight as you would UTG if it is limped round to the SB. If it's folded around to you in the SB, you can open a wider range (similar to what your CO opening range should be). Also avoid calling raises while sitting OOP in the BB. You may have already 'invested' one blind already, but you will be without the initiative and position the whole way. Its probably better to 3bet than call more often than not (unless you know the raiser is super spewy) (2). NO MICRO. Dont play micro levels like .05/.10 or lower. Those players play any two cards, chase everything, play bad starting cards, and you'll just get frustrated by the bad beats, and then do dumb things. A little higher level will pay off. Microstakes are great If you play anywhere with 5% rake, then there is nothing to stop you playing 5 or 10NL, the games are insanely soft. I myself only play $30NL (time/motivation issues ) and love it :P (3) ALWAYS RAISE PREFLOP. If you decide to play a hand, always enter it raising, even if you're playing 9 10. First, this represents to other players strength in your hand. If you hit the flop, great. If not, you have implied strength since you raised preflop. Second, the point of raising isn't just to build the pot. It's to reduce the number of players in the hand to heads up, or two others at most. The more players in, the more likely someone else hits the flop. You don't want to be in a hand post flop with 4 others. And you can't give the big blind a free flop - make them pay to play with you. I would say, if you are UTG, or if its folded to you, then yes, raise it up to enter the pot. Sometimes its simply better to just limp behind, say the limper infront never folds to a raise, then raising a hand like 33 is probably more profitable in a limped pot. Same thing applies if the limper is short stacked, and raising would reduce the EV of the situation. All depends on his limp/call frequency as well as stack sizes/who is acting behind you/etc Your odds of winning the hand go up dramatically if you raised preflop with only a few in the hand post flop. (4) CONTINUATION BETS. Always make a continuation bet. Should be 1/2 pot at least. If you're heads up and played 9 10 and the flop comes A 8 3 and your opponent played KQ, if you bet you have this 'fold equity' the pros talk about. This is the power to win a hand without having the best hand by betting and getting your opponent to fold. By raising preflop, you represented strength. By betting he'll likely think you have a range like AK, AQ, AJ. Most good players won't chase a King here and call a flop bet. They should think "Even if I hit my King, will I be ahead in the hand if he has an Ace?" If he re-raises or calls, then see #4 below, but you may have to fold giving him credit for a Ace. (3a). Most low stakes players play Ace/ anything, especially suited, so be careful if an Ace hits the flop. Higher stakes players don't usually play Ace/rag. I would say, continuation bet somewhere in the region of 70-80%. Some boards simply arent good to cbet on. The Axx board you gave is a GREAT board to bet on, as is any board that isnt 'connected' such as Qxx, even a board with 3 small cards can be good. Boards like 987 are dangerous to cbet on because people like suited connectors, and may have a flush draw, or a pair and straight draw, even a gutshot and overs (QJ) may call a cbet there. Typically I reserve cbets on boards like that for when I actually have a piece. Cbet freq. depends sooo much on villain: If he limp/called, and his stats suggest this is a small pair almost always, and he folds to 85% of cbets, then its pretty much the green light to fire EVERY flop. If he is playing tons of suited connecters then be sure to be every 2tone flop when you have ace high (even with pocket pairs, whatever). If villain folds 30% of cbets, make sure you have a piece, often ace high is good enough here. Make sure to take account of villains VPIP and PRF too: Something like 15/9 is limp/calling mainly small pairs; a 30/15 is probably limping some small pairs and a ton of suited connector types- cbet according to this and the board texture. We've all seen players raise preflop, then check the flop. That screams "I missed." Sure, clever players may check a strong hand, so see #4 below again. And don't just min. bet post flop either. That says: "I missed and want to see another card cheap." If you're tagged as checking whenever you miss the flop, you're telling the table your cards. Ive found a pretty surefire read that: If the PFR checks a super dry board, and then calls your bet, he has a good hand (or better) that you will NOT get to fold, usually this is a slowplay to get you to hang yourself. On flush draw boards, a check/call from villain who raised pre is likely a flush draw. (5) KNOW THY ENEMY. Get to know the players at your target table before you sit down. This means observing for 30-60 mintues and taking notes. Some players you may have notes on already. Don't rush to play. The object is to win money and good players won't give it up easy. What range does each player raise with? How much? Does it differ based upon the starting cards? Good players will always raise the same amount to disguise their range of starting hands. Does a player always limp in and never raise? Some will limp with AK all the time. Does Player A always check if he misses the flop? Does Player B always make a continuation bet if he misses. Does Player C always min. bet defensively when he misses the flop to see the next card cheap? Does Player D always check when he hits to disguise his hand? Does Player E play practically any two cards? People are creatures of habit and do what is in their comfort level. This information is vital to winning. You'll need to see a lot of hands because to get this info since you'll need to see players' hole cards which doesn't always get that far. 30min seems like a long time to watch a table, and for the most part most players will be pretty bad anyway. You see a table with great stats: large ave. pot, high % to the flop. You watch for 45min, and by then the fish are all gone/bust, there goes your chance (6) MAX BUY-INS. Always buy-in for the max (or 100 x BB) at your table such as $25 at a .10/.25 table, $50 at a $.25/.50 table, or $200 at a $1/2 table. Even if you have no intention of losing that much, you need to be seated with it. When a player buys in for $3 at a .05/.10 ($10 max) table, that tells me he has no confidence in his game, he expects to lose, and he'll be all-in on the third hand he plays. There's just not enough room for variance when you buy in short. When I see it, I think fish. You also can't win much if you dont have much to start. Short stacked players have no intimdation factor, only fish factor. A player who's won and is sitting with twice the max buy in just looks like he's good. The point is don't look like a fish - look like you're there to win. +1 -Good Luck. (6.5) * This is just based upon my experience - others may and likely will have their own thoughts. And I'm not metioning proper starting hands - just read the books. I will say though, mix it up now and then with for example "1 gap'rs" such as 8 10. It disguises a made straight when you hit and can win big.

[GainerRakeback]

Originally Posted by irishpkr Very solid advice for the most part IMO :P Some things I'd like to add in bold:

"Anyone can negatively criticize - it is the cheapest of all comment because it requires not a modicum of the effort that suggestion requires. "

-Chuck Jones (an American animator, cartoon artist, screenwriter, producer, and director)

:P

[liladypokerpro]

I dunno Gainer....I know irish and for him that was just about THE most polite response I think I've ever seen him make....and looking at it, I'd say it took a lot of effort....there's a lot of bold in there

On a serious note, back to the OP.

Gainer, Have you been reading or ever read any Dan Harrington books? Just curious because I swear you write an awful lot like him sometimes.

[irishpkr]

Originally Posted by liladypokerpro I dunno Gainer....I know irish and for him that was just about THE most polite response I think I've ever seen him make....and looking at it, I'd say it took a lot of effort....there's a lot of bold in there On a serious note, back to the OP. Gainer, Have you been reading or ever read any Dan Harrington books? Just curious because I swear you write an awful lot like him sometimes.

It wasnt really corrections, just some stuff I wanted to add for completeness. BTW, this was just a one-off nice response because it was actually something worth posting on, next 'online is rigged' thread is gonna get it bad!

[GainerRakeback]

Originally Posted by liladypokerpro I dunno Gainer....I know irish and for him that was just about THE most polite response I think I've ever seen him make....and looking at it, I'd say it took a lot of effort....there's a lot of bold in there On a serious note, back to the OP. Gainer, Have you been reading or ever read any Dan Harrington books? Just curious because I swear you write an awful lot like him sometimes.

For Irish I guess it was more polite than usual. But my posts are just my thoughts and opinions and I always say others will differ. None of us has it all worked out. Poker is an art, not a math problem with only one right answer. No offense intended... And I never offer basic strategy that anyone can read. I try to offer tips about live and online play or poker rooms that you can't always read in a book, or about my personal experiences playing live or online. Sometimes I post dumb things I've done. It's just for reading entertainment. I'd like to hear other players' stories. And I don't think online is rigged by the poker sites for the same reason casinos don't cheat - there's way too much money to be made being honest. I do think individual players may collude with one another or a player may play mutliple accounts at the same time. And there are bots playing online. Any time there's money to be had, someone will try to find an easy way to get it.

I haven't read any Harrington books. I did read Brunson's first Super System book from the 1970s, not his more recent version however. Also read another strd poker basics book which title I can't remember but by no one particularly famous. I attended a two day WPT Cash Game Boot Camp about a year ago and met Kenna "Cowboy" James, Lee Childs (WSOP Final Table 2007), Nick Brancato, and Rick Fuller. That's a lot of basic strategy and was a lot of fun. James has a real personality.

[irishpkr]

For me its a pretty easy decision: shitty thread = shitty response, useful thread = useful response :P

[Wyte22]

Originally Posted by irishpkr For me its a pretty easy decision: shitty thread = shitty response, useful thread = useful response :P

Shine that turd up soldier and get back into the +EV responses

[Wyte22]

Very good post for the most part, but I think you do need to add the disclaimer about this being for online play for #5. In live play, you don't have the option of watching a table for 30-60 minutes or any real substanial amount of time. Often times, you don't have a choice in what game/seat you get unless you request it. Also, at 1/2 NL in live play, watching a table is useless because the makeup can change in 30 minutes and go from a very profitable game to a -EV table for you. That comments leads me into number 6.

NOT buying in for your max amount has alot of benefit in live play. If I sit down at a 1/2NL tables at Harrah's, with max buyin of $200. if I don't like the table, I have to wait 2 hours before i can rebuy at another table for a lesser amount. But if I buy in for 1.5x Min (around 95-100) it gives me the option to take some time to look at the table while playing a semi-short stack and let me concentrate more on whether or not this will be a profitable game. If I don't like the game, I can move tables with my 95-100 and if I like that game, I can add on to the max.

Disclaimer, this is just my experiences in live play. What I do, probably won't work well for others but it works well for me.


oh and about buyins, if you ever wanna really mess with the 1/2NL tables that have a max buyin of like $200, buy into a 2/5NL game (usually 400-600 max buyin) and sit there for a few, take a break and move to 1/2, you'll be forced to rebuy for what you left and start the table off as usually the chip ldr. and yes, I've done it cuz I am just a big bully

[BUILDMO]

good advise for online play gain, but there should be a twist to everything in order to gain maxium. I see no critisim in irish's comments.

My theory is to play smart and grind. (kinda what you are recommending above).

You will not win every game/hand 100% of the time, but you can loose every game/hand 100% of the time, can't you?

A good development of the understanding of your opponent remains top priority.

peace

[Brooklynbum]

What's with the love fest?

Get in there and get mean!!! lol.

[pazx7]

i am new to the forum and would like to thank you, for shareing your info with us. I have and will re read this over over till i get it right

[Clearwheezy]

I think that representing the "fish" aspect can come out to your advantage.