Why You Raise

[Vito_Nuccio]

In no-limit poker raising is usually the best play. Put pressure on your opponent. When deciding between calling and raising; raise. You get to make the easy play by raising, your opponent must now take more factors into consideration once you increase the bet, a more complex decision must be made, folding becomes the easier play for them.

A huge factor that can not be overlooked about raising is you can win the pot at the time of the raise, no challenges, no suckouts, just a nice rake toward your chair. If you never raise, you have no chance to win early in a hand, you must showdown your cards. If you do nothing but call down, then the cards talk, and that is not what no limit poker is about. It is about people, and forcing others into uncomfortable positions. Winning a pot is never bad, no matter how small. Limping with monster starters invites more big hand crackers a chance to outdraw you.

Everyone will determine a raising style pre and post flop. One basic rule of thumb is the pre-flop raise amount. Many players use either 3 or 4 times the big blind amount (4xBB) when being the first to raise a hand. Post flop betting and raising is usually tied to the pot value with many opting to bet around the pot amount on most bets for equity, both for value and opponents folding factors. There are many articles and books with details on betting amounts, seek them out.

Sometimes raising can save you chips. Say you raise a hand early and get a nice re-raise, you can fold. If you end up calling increasing bets to the end of the hand you will lose more than raising and folding in the beginning.

As always with poker, the situation determines action, but if you are in a hand, raising is usually the better play with results.

Good Luck and, "I raise".

Later,

[shippotamus]

Yes, and no.

You need to keep fold equity in a balance with implied odds and reverse implied odds.

If fold equity is good in a spot where implied odds are low, then you should raise. IE sit and go strategy

If fold equity is low when implied odds are high, then you should play pot control poker. IE 100bb+ stacks.

If you're playing raise or fold 100bbs and higher you're going to get diced to pieces by good players. They're going to bet, you're going to raise or fold, and they're going to 3 bet and you're going to muck all but the best. If you're not taking advantage of the fold equity late in SnGs you're so totally minus e. You're going to limp 10-20% of your chips in, somebody is going to raise all in, and you're going to have to fold or win a showdown.

Just look how great of a player Daniel Negreanu is at deep stack tournaments, and how TERRIBLE he plays on poker after dark's sit and go structure.

And you're wrong about limping big hands. AA, KK, and AK play great in small preflop pots, and great in huge preflop pots. It's the medium ones where you lose your entire stack deep stack play.

And a note on making really great forum posts for the near future, you really need to define the parameters of the game you're talking about. NLHE changes so much from heads up to 4 handed, to 6 handed, to 9 handed, to sit and go, to low buyin tournament to high buyin tournament, to rebuy tournament. You could have been 100% right with the game you had in mind, but I can't read minds.

[Wyte22]

ALL IN enuff said!

[Vito_Nuccio]

Originally Posted by shippotamus Yes, and no. You need to keep fold equity in a balance with implied odds and reverse implied odds. If fold equity is good in a spot where implied odds are low, then you should raise. IE sit and go strategy If fold equity is low when implied odds are high, then you should play pot control poker. IE 100bb+ stacks. If you're playing raise or fold 100bbs and higher you're going to get diced to pieces by good players. They're going to bet, you're going to raise or fold, and they're going to 3 bet and you're going to muck all but the best. If you're not taking advantage of the fold equity late in SnGs you're so totally minus e. You're going to limp 10-20% of your chips in, somebody is going to raise all in, and you're going to have to fold or win a showdown. Just look how great of a player Daniel Negreanu is at deep stack tournaments, and how TERRIBLE he plays on poker after dark's sit and go structure. And you're wrong about limping big hands. AA, KK, and AK play great in small preflop pots, and great in huge preflop pots. It's the medium ones where you lose your entire stack deep stack play. And a note on making really great forum posts for the near future, you really need to define the parameters of the game you're talking about. NLHE changes so much from heads up to 4 handed, to 6 handed, to 9 handed, to sit and go, to low buyin tournament to high buyin tournament, to rebuy tournament. You could have been 100% right with the game you had in mind, but I can't read minds.

Thanks for the response, I agree with some of your points, disagree with others. First of all this is the beginning forum section, You should define your acronyms and advanced theory for the rookies. That is one reason I did not get into the type of game or betting levels. I just wanted to say raising is usually the better play and it is. I did not say either raise or fold, that is too simplistic, I was pointing out that a raise is usually the better play. Limping with KK or AK is a good way to lose your stack. Yes there are situations where limping is the better play, but in general, a raise is one to play.

And for the posting advice, no thanks. This is for the beginners, no need to overwhelm with number of players, table sizes, betting limits, blah, blah, blah......I will leave that for other forums.

Later,

[liladypokerpro]

Kudos Vito!

[Boilermaker]

Originally Posted by shippotamus Yes, and no. You need to keep fold equity in a balance with implied odds and reverse implied odds. If fold equity is good in a spot where implied odds are low, then you should raise. IE sit and go strategy If fold equity is low when implied odds are high, then you should play pot control poker. IE 100bb+ stacks. If you're playing raise or fold 100bbs and higher you're going to get diced to pieces by good players. They're going to bet, you're going to raise or fold, and they're going to 3 bet and you're going to muck all but the best. If you're not taking advantage of the fold equity late in SnGs you're so totally minus e. You're going to limp 10-20% of your chips in, somebody is going to raise all in, and you're going to have to fold or win a showdown. Just look how great of a player Daniel Negreanu is at deep stack tournaments, and how TERRIBLE he plays on poker after dark's sit and go structure. And you're wrong about limping big hands. AA, KK, and AK play great in small preflop pots, and great in huge preflop pots. It's the medium ones where you lose your entire stack deep stack play. And a note on making really great forum posts for the near future, you really need to define the parameters of the game you're talking about. NLHE changes so much from heads up to 4 handed, to 6 handed, to 9 handed, to sit and go, to low buyin tournament to high buyin tournament, to rebuy tournament. You could have been 100% right with the game you had in mind, but I can't read minds.

I can see the beginners scratching their heads now. Shippo lost them in right field.


Shippo just 1 note, when you try and post a GREAT reply, check out who your replying to and what section its it. If it's in beginner section, keep it simple with simple terms.
Vito always gives excellant advice and Best of All, ITS FREE.
He is a WELL respected member of the rakeback forum

[liladypokerpro]

Kudos Boiler!

[Brooklynbum]

"Raise or fold. There is no call".

Yoda WSOP 2008.

[shippotamus]

You are correct that I did not realize that it was a beginner section, but learning the ins and outs of a poker decision should start with hand relativity so my last sentence still applies. If someone is going to take poker seriously (which you know everyone here is, because they a) joined a rakeback site and b) are reading this thread) this could be their coming out party to poker stardom.

Realizing the subtleties and differences from game to game and situation to situation is probably about 10% of the battle to becoming a good poker player. Being able to adapt from spot to spot is another 10%

If somebody asks "what's fold equity", "why is sng vs mtt different", or "what does MTT EVEN STAND 4~!@" Then we've done our jobs as forum posters. Always give a situation in a thread if you are being helpful, otherwise it is more dangerous than advantageous for a beginning player. Remember they know how to swing the bat, next they need to learn balls and strikes or they will be swinging at everything.

[powrdragn]

I agree with a lot of what Vito said. I do want to add something though.

When I'm teaching/explaining poke to beginners, I always aks them WHY they raised with a hand. If they say "I don't know," we have a little "chat."

When you raise (just like any other play, most importantly when raising), you should have a reason. What's the purpose to your raise? What are you trying to accomplish?

A few simple rules:

Don't raise with marginal to weak hands in early position. This usually means QJ or less.

If you are in late position and ar eunsure of what play to make, raising is probably the right play. It at least forces your opposition into a tougher situation.

Unless you absolutely think you can steal the pot away from the opposition don't three-bet or four-bet without premium hands preflop (AA,KK, QQ ). Doing it with anything else can likely get you into some situations that you can't work your way out of.


Some things have already been stated in this thread that I agree with as well. A hand like AK or AQ plays well against a small number of opponents. A hand like AA is probably Ok going to war with 1 to 4 opponents. So, when raising try to pick a number that can get you to the field size that you want.

Also, don't get too enamored with suited connected. If you choose to play them, in the begining, stick with higher suited connectors (87 and up). These will get you in less trouble. You'll also be OK, limping with these hands or making small raises. You want to play these hands against multiple opponents, becuase they will likely pay large when they hit. Try to play these mid to late position when you can though, because it helps determine the strength of your draws.

There is a lot to be said for the aggression of a raise. It's a tool just like anything else. Don't overuse it. And like I stated before, always have a reason for doing it. If you raise to often without thought or logic you can get numb to it all and get lazy in your thought process. This allows a useful tool to become a leak in your game.

[liladypokerpro]

I love this thread...there is so much good info to be had and absorbed by newer players. Bravo to all detailed posts.

[powrdragn]

For being a (effectively) free site, it's one of the more friendly and useful message forums.

Beginners should definitely take advantage of this section.

[powrdragn]

Also, don't ge tinto raising wars "just because." If someone comes over the top of you, give some thought to their raises. They don't just want to throw money around.

If they do it two or three times, then sure, come back over the time once to let them know you aren't a pushover. Just be sure to do it with a hand that has at least somewhat of a fighting chance (QJ+ or middle suited connector type hands).

There is a lot of in-depth strategy that one can get into, but until you've put in a few thousand hands on the felt, a lot of that information will go wasted. Start small and simple and work your way up.

[RiverstarsVictim]

I also agree with opening post but would also like to add...

If you're on a draw and have position in a narrow field, also be sure to raise. Aside from fold equity, many times initial raiser will just call and check the turn. If you hit your draw on the turn it's disguised, if you miss and it's checked to you, you can see the river for free

[Vito_Nuccio]

Originally Posted by powrdragn When I'm teaching/explaining poke to beginners, I always aks them WHY they raised with a hand. If they say "I don't know," we have a little "chat." When you raise (just like any other play, most importantly when raising), you should have a reason. What's the purpose to your raise? What are you trying to accomplish?

Yes, there should definitely be a reason to raise. If the math, opponents, chip stacks or even the little poker voice from inside tells you to raise, do it, but make sure it is for a proper reason. It may be because you think the other player will fold, maybe it is time to build a big pot, who knows. Raise, but know why you are raising and what you are trying to accomplish with the action.

Thanks powdragn......

Later,