BankRoll Management

[dew12109]

I'm on a limited budget. I've had a horrible summer and have successfully gone in the hole with my poker "earnings" now. I was up before the summe,r but I've redeposited and watched everything continue to slowly dwindle.

So here is my question... I'm going to have to save up again without being able to play because tonight I eventually lost it all again. So how do you guys manage your bankroll?

When do you decide to move up a level in cash games, and when do you decide to move down a level? I would prefer to mix some sng's and some mtt's into my poker as well, so for those that play those styles, how do you decide what buy-ins to play? I really need some help in just understanding bankroll management. I think this might be the trickiest area of poker for me. I usually have a good handle at what is happening at the table, and it seems that I get outdrawn pretty frequently when I call someone's bluff with a mediocre hand as happened tonight. I had top pair of Q's and knew my opponent was weak with his bet, moved all in against him.. he called with A4, there was a 3 on the board, and a 2 and 5 hit on the turn and river after the all-ins. This happened with this guy literally (no exaggerating here) 5 separate times in about 40 minutes of play. It's nights like this that empty my bankroll, and it wasn't caused by very poor playing... I just couldn't call the guy off anything if he had any outs, and I literally never won one of the all ins against him after the flop. I just need to figure a way to push through these dry spells I guess. I don't know... just looking for any help here.

I know there are going to be up times and down times... it just seems like the down times are wiping me out. I don't want to give up poker or anything, I just have gotta figure out a better bankroll management system than I currently have.

[Wyte22]

I am a strict HU SNG player but I do mix. my ratio is 90% HU SnGs, 2% HU cash game, 6% STT SnGs (6max only) and the occassional MTTs and 9-max tourneys.

My BR management is alittle different than most, because in HU SnGs, I have a very nice win rate. I do vary my % of Buyins from between 1-10% of my BR (depending on how I am feeling, my mood, how much sleep I've gotten, how relaxed I am...etc). For me, my highest win rates (or highest RoIs) are in $22 HUSnGs (which is around 1.7% of my BR), $55 HUSnGs (around 4 something %) and $220 HUSnG (less than 20%, but I VERY VERY rarely play this anymore due to more limited BR now than a few months ago ....long story lol). I typically play in my highest RoIs, and I'll Vary my game play at each level.

Now for Cash games, it depends on whether or not you want to make money at this. If it is for fun (building the BR), play with whatever you feel comfortable with. but if you are playing to one day make a good living at it, don't advance up the games until you are consistently beating one certain level (to me, consistently beating a level is getting 1,000 Big Blinds ......example: If your playing 1c/2c NL hold'em. If you make $20 at that level, then I'd move up the ladder). At each level, have AT THE LEAST, 20 MAX buyins. if you are playing the same level with a $2 max buyin, you need at LEAST $40 to play there. It is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better to have 50-100 Buyins though. Yes this will take ALOT longer to build your bankroll over time, but it will provide more stability and you won't be risking alot of your bankroll at any given moment. Also, if you begin to feel tired, depressed, sleepy, drunk, mad, or any emotion other than happy, quit playing IMMEDIATLY. I personally have taken a few months of anger out on my BR and I've paid dearly for it!!

As for SnGs, I advocate playing with no less than 20 buyins (that's buyin+rake). Soo if the Buyin is $12 (11 plus 1 rake) then you need AT LEAST $240 to play there. Again, more buyins are ALOT better because (this is strictly my opinion with 6 and 9 max SnGs), there is more variance there than in Cash games because hands in cash games win money but they don't in SnGs, places win money.

MTTs. Absolutely, positivly, do not enter a MTT with more than 2% of your BR (unless you have a BR of $5 and it's a $1 MTT, then that's ok, your small stacked any how). The variance on MTTs are huge, you can win 2 in 2 days and not win another for weeks, months, years. The payouts are huge at the top but in some tourneys, you gotta fight like 3,000 people to win soo mathmatically your chances of winning against 3000 people are.....0.0003333% Take this into consideration when you are playing MTTs. Cashing alot of them is great, and it shows alot of discinple and patience (which you will need).

[RiverstarsVictim]

If your bankroll got wiped out through 5 bad beats in 40 minutes then you're playing out of your depth.

A good starting point for NL is usually 20 X buy-in, so for NL10 you'd require a roll of $200. Some are comfortable with 15 x buy-in whilst others prefer 30 x buy-in.

As for moving up the limits, same rules apply, 20 x buy-in (or whatever you're comfortable with) but only move up if you're confident you're beating the current level. Many players can run stupidly hot playing bad poker for the short term and move up anyway and then wonder why they went busto when the variance turned against them.

Also, if you do move up a limit and find you're not doing so well, dont be too proud to move back down a limit if your roll drops considerably.

[dew12109]

Thank you for this. Currently, I'm not attempting to make a living at this or anything, but it's moved beyond the "just for fun" level.

I've read a lot on various bankroll management, but nothing has been worded like what you have. This seems like it will be pretty helpful.

[liladypokerpro]

Pretty much as stated above, generally 20x is the most common to strive for. Another good time to drop down a level is if you find yourself constantly running bad. These streaks will happen, but rather than staying in the same predicament, dropping down a level can help you by volumes. Likewise, if you find yourself running extremely good, and your bankroll allows for it, then that would be the prime time to move up a level. BUT, always use caution when moving up. I like to watch the tables for upwards of 10-20 minutes before committing to sit at a higher level table. That way, you can see what type of action is going on, and if it will fit in well with your style of play, or if you will need to make drastic adaptations. I like to avoid tables with a super-high percentage of players seeing the river. I also like to avoid maniacal tables at the higher limits. I typically will seek out tight/passive tables in the higher limits, because they are the easiest to steam roll. But, this is just me. You have to choose according to your own style of play, and comfort level.

Best wishes and good luck!

[rakmupagain]

Streaks like these happen all the time, just today I was all in 8 times with dominant hand and lost all 8 (including two 1 outers). This is why bankroll management is so important. A good guideline to stick with is outlined by Chris Ferguson's Challenge, where he turns $0 into $10k.
Basically for NL cash games, you can only play at a game if u have 20 times the max buy in. If your stack reaches 10% of your bankroll at any time, you leave the table when the blind reaches you. He has different guidelines for mtt's and sng's as well. I think its 200 buy ins for mtt's and 50 for sng's.

These were the rules he set for himself to safely handle bad swings. Statistically, over a span of 100k hands, a top level poker player on average will have at least 1 downswing of 15 buy ins or more. Arming yourself with that info, 20 buy ins should be bare minimum for nl cash games. I wont enter a cash game without 40. Good luck at the tables.

[Jonathank]

if you are a consistent loser, bankroll management is moot. someone has to lose. why not you?

[Fictive]

Like already posted, 20-25x buy-in is a pretty good option. If you are thinking about going up a level, first consider this: are you sure you are a winning player at the current level? No point in going up a level after a week of running hot. Secondly, even though it can feel kinda annoying grinding out the smallest micro limits, keep at it until you are definetely making a clear profit, and don't move up a level before you have again the 20-25x buy-in for the next level. If you feel like you are having a horrendous luck at a certain limit and feel like you always have the short end of the stick, swallow your pride and admit to yourself you just might not be ready for the level in question, and drop down level for a while. Also, remember that you might get insane hot- or cold streaks. As an example, a few months ago I made over $2000 profit playing NL100 and occasional NL200. Everything went my way, and when I was behind (thinking I got the best of it, I sucked out). Another example of terrible cold streak, the very last three sessions I've played, I'm down over $700 holding the best of it on the flop only to get sucked out on. Sitautions like that are the very reason why you need an adequate bankroll. Keep grinding and hopefully you'll make some cash in the future.

[mollila]

Originally Posted by dew12109 So here is my question... I'm going to have to save up again without being able to play because tonight I eventually lost it all again. So how do you guys manage your bankroll?

Gotta plug in the Better Get There blog Bankroll management post here.

[Vito_Nuccio]

There are many good ideas here. When it comes to bankroll, we all must come up with a plan and stick with it. There should be no chance to lose the entire wad in an evening or even a weeks time if proper bankroll management is followed. I do not know the magic number but the larger the spread between buy-in and account total the better.

There are winning and losing streaks in this game. The best players, winning the most money still get mired into losing streaks. The reason they can come back is the fact they have reserves. The slump could last days, weeks, who knows. You must have the stockpile to make it though these times. If you are playing well, studying the game and other players, the tides will turn. But as stated by all so far, when they do turn, you need to have the funds to capitalize.

Many online players have the retirement pro poker player dream running and ruining their bankrolls. They may be pretty good players, but due to poor money handling, poker is a frustrating experience. The losses overshadow the wins, not a good thing, should be the opposite. Chasing losses is the worst way to try to get back above water, ride it out with lessor wad exposure to avoid an empty poker account.

I think my worst streak was a little over a week. Suckout after suckout, no draws hitting, just losing. But, since my buy-ins were a small fraction (~2% or less) of my account, when the winning came back, so did the account, in fact my bankroll ended up a little higher than just before the downturn.

Think of your poker account as a totally seperate entity from your personal finances or real world spending. Treat your online account like a living creature, feed it properly and it will grow. Take good care of it and it will protect you against unforeseen events. Your online roll is your lifeline to the ePoker world.

Not everyone can make a total living out of poker, but many can and do make some cash off of it consistantly. There are many levels and options to get to this stage, find the level where you win money and play there until you have that magic percentage number (rem: bigger the better), then maybe move up, you do not have to. If you lose $100 a week playing $20 games but make $300 a week at the $10 level, then stay home until you can swim with the bigger fish.

If you feel like you are managing your roll sufficiently and it is still moving in the wrong direction, then a self diagnosis of your game is in order.

Thanks,

[BUILDMO]

I sure would like to increase my bankroll FASTER.

This truely is a game of patience, and one must learn that AK, AA, KK, etc. do get beat.

The last 4 games I did not cash (on the bubble), my AA got beat. ($10 sng) 4x in a row, wtf.

The 3rd and 4th time really pushed me over the edge. (sucker calling a raise and hitting 2pair 6644)

I've noticed that the smaller buy-ins do bring increases 90% of the time, but making $13 bucks an hour just isn't worth it. (unless you're playing 5 games at once and cashing in all of them).

my guess is that the only way to increase your winning is by taking 'that' chance, just be prepared to win.

[allthatremains]

Originally Posted by Buildmo I sure would like to increase my bankroll FASTER. This truely is a game of patience, and one must learn that AK, AA, KK, etc. do get beat. The last 4 games I did not cash (on the bubble), my AA got beat. ($10 sng) 4x in a row, wtf. The 3rd and 4th time really pushed me over the edge. (sucker calling a raise and hitting 2pair 6644) I've noticed that the smaller buy-ins do bring increases 90% of the time, but making $13 bucks an hour just isn't worth it. (unless you're playing 5 games at once and cashing in all of them). my guess is that the only way to increase your winning is by taking 'that' chance, just be prepared to win.

I think everyone would like to build their bankroll faster.

$13. an hour may not seem worth it, but if you play outside your bankroll and you bust your bankroll, are you ready to quit playing poker? If you just dig deeper into your pocket, then your "true bankroll" is actually higher (maybe limitless).

The only reason for bankroll management is to keep you in the game if you belong there. It gets you through variance and allows you to move up levels as your game progresses. If you are a poor player(I'm not calling anyone a poor player), and unable/unwilling to improve, no bankroll management will ever keep you going.

If you just play for fun there is no need for bankroll management at all. You can just keep adding to your account and look at playing as entertainment. Most entertainment has a cost so you can decide if you are getting enough entertainment value at any point - just like any other form of gambling.

[frankpapa1]

How can i build my roll from 100 bucks can some1 help me ?

[iceveins0901]

Originally Posted by frankpapa1 How can i build my roll from 100 bucks can some1 help me ?

A LOT of patience and playing the micro stakes cash games. playing very solid hands (3 of a kind and better) strong, and playing weaker hands ( 1 pair and low 2 pair) fairly softly. You really have to begin to watch your opponents and read what how they play, and try to figure out when your weak hands are good while still not giving up too much money with weak hands.

On your strong hands, it is mostly just value betting, and of course realizing when you need to lay the hand down. You have to think about the game, think about the players, think about the bet they made and think about who is ahead and if you should raise or fold.

So much of bankroll management and becoming a winning card player comes with serious study and experience. Once you have seen it all 1,000 times and reviewed all of your big wins and big losses, you are always more able to put a better picture together of the entire game to make better decisions.

[RiverstarsVictim]

Originally Posted by Buildmo I sure would like to increase my bankroll FASTER. This truely is a game of patience, and one must learn that AK, AA, KK, etc. do get beat. The last 4 games I did not cash (on the bubble), my AA got beat. ($10 sng) 4x in a row, wtf. The 3rd and 4th time really pushed me over the edge. (sucker calling a raise and hitting 2pair 6644) I've noticed that the smaller buy-ins do bring increases 90% of the time, but making $13 bucks an hour just isn't worth it. (unless you're playing 5 games at once and cashing in all of them). my guess is that the only way to increase your winning is by taking 'that' chance, just be prepared to win.

Reading your post, playing more tables at once is precisely what you need to be doing IMO.

No matter how good a player you are it's impossible you will win or cash in every tournament, sng, cash game etc you will play. If you're an above average player (which I suspect many who take the time to read forums like this one are) then playing more than 1 table shouldn't be a real problem. If one table is earning you $13 an hour then there really shouldn't be any reason why two tables cant earn you $22 an hour or four tables cant earn you $35 an hour. Notice I didn't automatically double the winnings per hour, you will have to allow for less concentration per table.

Not sure what you meant by taking 'that' chance but if your suggesting playing at limits above your bankroll, you will go bust eventually.

[ftpluvsme]

i feel ur pain man but u sumtimes have to slow play it i used to be liek that and lost about 100 bucks in a week gettin caled on draws and them hittin sumtimes its better off just to check or to call dont rush things unless u feel ur gonna hit