Big Decision-What Would you Have Done?

[frob23]

Originally Posted by pondragon Haha that's so true. How often is anyone going to show up with a post like this when they played it right? Anyways I also believe he lost the pot. Sorry >.<

I highly doubt this is a "I called and lost" story. I am betting that this is a "I folded and showed my hand and then he showed me the 3-3 [or 6-6]" story. Or even better, "Either one of those variations where the other player has K-3 or K-6." In that case it doesn't matter if it was a call or a fold and show (even though one is worse) because it destroys all claims about the guy being a decent player.

[frob23]

Also, can someone explain to me how we make a pre-flop raise (with 2 callers), a bet on the flop, and a $40 bet on the turn... and the pot is $100?

In my experience the standard opening raise for $1/$2 live runs on the high side... $10-$16. Even if we assume the least... $10... that's a $30 pot. Then he fires $20 (which is reasonable) on the flop, gets one caller... bringing the pot to $70. Now he fires $40... the guy calls that and shoves the rest... so the pot was $150 + the raise. And this assumes the minimum reasonable amounts for a live game at these levels.

I guess he's counting before his $40 bet... which means that the $40 bet was too small... and could easily look like fear of a K-x type hand here. Given the size of the bet and pot and that this is $1/$2... I think we can't rule out that this opens up the bluffing range much more than it would be if we had fired $80-$100 at this pot.

I mean... I was figuring (when I first read the problem) that we fired $12 pre-flop. Making the pot about $39 on the flop. And then we fired $35 (because slow-playing is mostly pointless at this level) on the flop. That's $109... now $40 is too small for that pot... So I'd be firing about $90-$110 at it. After firing $100, I'd only have $300 behind... and the pot would be massive.

I am not afraid of playing for stacks, even this deep, against the typical $1/$2 donk after I make a weak little bet on the turn there. Will I be wrong? Sometimes. But not often enough that I'd lose money in the long run here.

[pondragon]

Originally Posted by frob23 Also, can someone explain to me how we make a pre-flop raise (with 2 callers), a bet on the flop, and a $40 bet on the turn... and the pot is $100? In my experience the standard opening raise for $1/$2 live runs on the high side... $10-$16. Even if we assume the least... $10... that's a $30 pot. Then he fires $20 (which is reasonable) on the flop, gets one caller... bringing the pot to $70. Now he fires $40... the guy calls that and shoves the rest... so the pot was $150 + the raise. And this assumes the minimum reasonable amounts for a live game at these levels. I guess he's counting before his $40 bet... which means that the $40 bet was too small... and could easily look like fear of a K-x type hand here. Given the size of the bet and pot and that this is $1/$2... I think we can't rule out that this opens up the bluffing range much more than it would be if we had fired $80-$100 at this pot. I mean... I was figuring (when I first read the problem) that we fired $12 pre-flop. Making the pot about $39 on the flop. And then we fired $35 (because slow-playing is mostly pointless at this level) on the flop. That's $109... now $40 is too small for that pot... So I'd be firing about $90-$110 at it. After firing $100, I'd only have $300 behind... and the pot would be massive. I am not afraid of playing for stacks, even this deep, against the typical $1/$2 donk after I make a weak little bet on the turn there. Will I be wrong? Sometimes. But not often enough that I'd lose money in the long run here.

Lol I don't know how they were playing it but the OP specifically went back to edit his post to add that the pot was less than 100 after he bet the 40 on the turn. Strange to me as well.

I'm not sure what was going on, but it seems the OP was trying to play a small pot and didn't build the pot up much at all. In the future, definitely bet stronger and more and you won't get yourself into these kinds of huge overbets where you have absolutely no odds to call. You're also allowing yourself to be bluffed out of the pot if he does have a worse hand by keeping the pot this small with a hand as strong as it is.

Hurry up and let us know what happened XD I'm tired of guessing. Give us the answer! :P

[irishpkr]

The worst part is when people talk about 'investment' and how having onlt $60 in the pot means we should fold

[scoobyj]

Personally id call. With a hand like AK and a flop like that the odds are good. As its a cash game and you have raised pre flop (must have been a good raise for the size of the pot you are saying), i cant see why anyone would call a big pre flop raise with 33 or 66. Id put him on KQ, KJ, AK or possibly AA with an over sized raise like that.

As for showing your hand if you folded, if you do show your hand, what is the point in giving the other members at the table more info on your play?

[irishpkr]

"As its a cash game and you have raised pre flop (must have been a good raise for the size of the pot you are saying), i cant see why anyone would call a big pre flop raise with 33 or 66."

This is naive and wrong, seeing that they are both over 200BB deep.

"Id put him on KQ, KJ, AK or possibly AA with an over sized raise like that."

AA is possible, but far more likely to 3ball preflop, AK likewise.

"As for showing your hand if you folded, if you do show your hand, what is the point in giving the other members at the table more info on your play?"

Correct

[Wyte22]

Calling/folding this is completely player dependent. Most villian types, this is a snap call, and if you are beat, you have outs to a much better hand but if you don't catch up, that's called poker. Just reload and get back in it. Live play is very silly sometimes, people make plays like that with 63s, misreading their hand. Like everyone as said, only a small number of combos beat you here, soo not to much to worry about.

Like I said, against most villian types, this is an insta call. If you are playing someone very tight, then ya, I may give folding a thought. I go for broke the majority of the time here. You are either a monster favorite on flop/turn....or not terribly far behind. Plus regardless of villian types, overbetting the pot (unless you have a read on it from previous hands), is a sure sign that their hand is weak and they don't want you to continue in the pot to catch up.

Blast me if you want to, but like I said, I go for broke here against MOST villian types. If you lose, not the end of the world, but don't play on such a small BR that you are scared to make decisions like this. If you are, move down (if your doing live, move down to <$100 Home game BIs, if you have a good number of them in your area) and once you get back to a good 40-50BI roll, get back in it. Varience (IMO) is higher in live play than online play because of the absolutely insane play (espically at 1/2), you need to be prepared to triple your money one night and drop 2-4BIs the next night, anything can happen.

[Peitch]

What were his showdown holdings? did he always showed the best hand?

How did he act when he shoves his whole stack in on the turn? if he put you on a king he would never raise so much with a boat I think.

He replys: Oh, really? ( that's what he said right? ) by this answer he represent a boat for sure ( 33 or 66 ) because it's so much sarcasm that you can't got 33 or 66 too.

I think I would make my decision on how he acts, bodylanguage etc. and try to ask some things.
If he is a good player and know that you are a TAG he easily could do this with junk to let you fold underpair to the K or even AA.
The second thing is, he could have the K too, not thinking about K3 or K6.

After I wrote this reply I think it's a call for me, he know's that you're only gonna call with a hand better than his ( so mostly a hand like AK at least ) and that he's bluffing you out with QJ or something.


What was the result of this hand?

[GainerRakeback]

EDIT: 11/17/08 ANSWER

I want to thank all of you who responded to the post and voted. Several of you put a lot of thought into your analysis and it's appreciated.
There's generally two kinds of mistakes a player can make (1) putting your money in bad not realizing you're beat, or (2) not putting your money in when your hand is good. Of course the latter is the lesser of two evils. In this case, overwhelmingly you all would have made the call.

Unfortunatley, I made the wrong decision. I folded, and mucked. Players asked what I had, but I stayed quiet. I just couldn't call off my whole stack of $400.00. Either he (1) had a monster hand and pushed hoping I'd call w/ a King and he'd win a hugh pot, or (2) he had a marginal hand and was pushing to buy the pot.

After I mucked, he turned over KQ. I was just sick. I'm certain had I been playing on-line, I would have insta-called. After, he actually said he had to make a hugh bet or "You would have won the pot." No kidding. It was a donk move by a big fish and 98% of other players would have called and stacked him. My gut said to call, but then the brain took over. The pros say that your initial gut reaction is usually the right one. Afterwards I sat for one more hand and had to leave. I couldn't play anymore. I still left winning over $100.00, but it was the worst feeling after winning I'd ever had.

[HeyKidMove]

When you're playing, you can't play worrying about losing your stack. When you say if it was online, you would have called. Why not in that situation? If you can't make that call, you're playing out of your bankroll and shouldn't be playing those stakes anyway.

[Timdafox89]

I feel like if you didnt bet out enough pre flop, a possibly inexperienced player would make the call with 66. And with a KK3 flop he might have made a loose call but he probably thought the only hand that could beat him was a king and once he hit his 6 it was all in from there because the pot was big enough and he just wanted to take it down too. Orrrrr he could have had something like KQ suited which in this case youre out in front. I dont know it is fifty fifty but definitely a tough call to make either way

[Fictive]

Originally Posted by GainerRakeback EDIT: 11/17/08 ANSWER My gut said to call, but then the brain took over. The pros say that your initial gut reaction is usually the right one.

Yeh, I've heard some pro saying on tv during a hand "think too long, go wrong" or something to that affect. I was pretty sure about the AK/KQ, too bad you folded, but think about it this way: your entire poker career is one big session, and in the end you'll see how you have done. Mistakes every now and then and losing sessions aren't fun, but in the end the only thing that truly matters is the "long run".

[ProtekYoNuts]

You have to call here even if he has 33 or 66 u have 7 outs to beat him. But there is a great chance you are good also. You say that he could play then there is a chance you have the same hand. I dont like the fact he is leaning back in his chair unfazed.. Call gl

[ProtekYoNuts]

lol I guess im late on the reply just looked at the question today opps..

[Brooklynbum]

Tricky hand. I don't think it's an insta-call.

Judging by the description of the guy, he could be doing it with air.

Let's say for example he knows your tight, he might put you on AA in which case you're probably folding. I think this guy knows that. Plus his friends are watching him, he could be showing off to his friends. That could be a possibility as I've seen this happen many times. A guy who's obviously successful has friends watching him play poker and he might be putting on a show for them. Either way he wins. He wins the admiration of the table and his friends if he's bluffing. He gets admiration also if indeed he has 66 or 33. If he's indeed bluffing then the $300 doesn't mean squat to him (at least that's the image he's portraying to the table and to his friends watching). If had K/Q or K/J then he has a bad beat story to tell his friends over dinner. Either way it's something he can talk about to his friends during dinner afterwards.

He knows you've only played a handful of hands and he knows you're able fold in marginal situations (due to your tight image). He might also know that the money you won is more important to you than it is to him so he's shoving.

That could be a scenario. I'm saying that's what he's doing but it is a possibility. There are guys I've played agianst in casinos who have that type of personality.

Now, if you're playing more money and you want to keep your profits then folding isn't a bad thing here. I've always said that folding is never a bad move if you think you're beat, also if you're ahead and want to walk away with some profits then folding is a good move, why give it back?

I'm also guessing that there isn't a good ending to this post.

The argument can be made for calling or folding. Either option is good depending on your financial situation.

If it was me and I made a living playing cards then it's an easy fold. On the other hand if you're playing for fun and hope to make some money and can afford to lose $300 without putting you on the soup line, then I'd call in a heartbeat.

It really is up to the individual. Folding this hand would take great discipline and very few players have that discipline or are playing above their BR.

Lastly, if I indeed decided to fold, I'd never show him what I folded. That will only open up the door for more of those moves against you.

Another thing when I play live against players who I think are astute, I wouldn't play that tight because they will use that against you. I'd open my ranges a little and gamble a little or at least portray that image. You do not want to have an image of a super-tight player at a table with a lot of gamblers. If they're paying attention they know that they can get you off hands (like this if they put you on AA for example) because they'll know the range of hands you're playing and opening with (then this could something for another post/forum).

Hey you walked out of the room with a $100 profit and the bottom line is that you did well. Just think of how you'd feel if he indded had the boat. You'd feel sick to your stomach knowing that you could've folded that hand but didn't.

In any event if you do the math, it's almost always correct to call in this situation as you're way way ahead ahead against the range of hands he could be holding.

Funny, if this was a tournament it's an insta-call, but since this was a cash game and a pretty big amount of money was at stake it's a 50/50 proposition of calling or folding.

Strange how money can screw with your head in poker.