Is Heads Up a true test of skill?

[PointerJake]

So the other day I was playing a six person cash game online. There was one guy who played very aggresivelly, almost to the point of ridiculous. So I would wait till I caught good cards and check call until after the river and then I would reraise him. This really pissed him off as I did it several times. He then began to mouth off and tell me I was a horrible player and I was a huge donk and this and that. After 10 min. or so I had enough of it and challenged him to a heads up game. When we finally got around to playing and Heads up he wanted to go up a level to do so. Fine by me. By the time we were done he had rebought twice and finally had enough. He then tells me heads up is all luck and I am still horrible. Yet I seemed to be able to fold to his all ins and he couldn't fold to mine. And I know I could have kept beating him up all day long.

So my question is do you all think Heads up play is a true test of skill? or Not?

[liladypokerpro]

I'm not sure HU is a "true test" of skill, but it definitely takes some. I think making it through an MTT to get to the point of HU is more the true test than actually just sitting down and playing HU right off without having to play in a tournament to get there. Just mho. Please don't jump me.

[ungarstu132]

Originally Posted by liladypokerpro I'm not sure HU is a "true test" of skill, but it definitely takes some. I think making it through an MTT to get to the point of HU is more the true test than actually just sitting down and playing HU right off without having to play in a tournament to get there. Just mho. Please don't jump me.

you always brighten things up a bit, and i thank you for that

[BUILDMO]

Play heads up strong!
Play heads up weak, you will get beat (unless you are slow playing a good starting hand)
After the flop heads up, bet! Your hand is the best!

I am ALL IN with good starting hands Heads up. I don't fool around when down to two left.

Play like you have it and the callers are just lucky if they hit.( but that's poker).

BTW - Bankroll management will always prevail, so play smart to win.

Second place is OK (cash man).

First place means you deserve it!

[Wyte22]

HU is more Skill than MTTs and SnGs because you can't just sit there and fold every hand that comes to you. You GOT to be creative sometimes and vary your play more and bluff more HU. Soo Yes, it most def requires more skill. in a 9-max tourney, you can go 20 hands with folding and then play a good hand. You fold 20 str8 hands in HU, you might as well give up, cuz your screwed.

Higher Stakes HU require all the skills that Higher stake MTTs and SnGs require but to a higher degree. You gotta be able to switch gears faster and more randomly, you must be able to pull off an effective bluff (90% of the time when you bluff), and soo much more. I honestly believe that Hand reading skills are probably the most important skill to a HU player. You are CONSTANTLY playing 2nd best pair on the board (sometimes 3rd) and you MUST know where you stand at all times or you are screwed and tattoed. This just isn't as important in 6-max and 9-max tables because when you play there, you are almost always playing top pair.

I believe if you can't aren't aggressive, you aren't willing to gamble your stack with 2nd pair good kicker, you don't have a great understanding of different villians and how to apporach it and if you don't have very good hand reading skills, then don't play HU, you are dead money.

[liladypokerpro]

I agree that HU for you is a true test to your skill because that is your forte' Wyte. But in general, with people who don't specialize in HU (like me), it takes me more skill just to make it to that point. Once I get there though, I have enough skill to at least give them a good run for their money, if not win altogether.

So I guess what I'm saying is that regular ol' fashioned poker players probably see the true test as being able to make it to that point, whereas people who specialize in specific aspects of the game, like HU, will consider that to be their true test.

Am I making any sense??? LOL

[Jonathank]

wow, 8 minute mile sound pretty good to me. i guess i am playing too much online poker.

[frob23]

I love heads up play. I really do. So many people don't know how to play well when heads up. I like heads up cash, deep stack tourney, short stack tourney (like a final table)... basically, I like it all.

In my experience, most players are too passive heads up. They just don't put the pressure on. But, those players who aren't... tend to be too aggressive and get too involved in hands (which is equally exploitable). Very few players know how to walk the line.

I do think it's a match of skill but not necessarily the indicator of who is the better player. Like anything, heads up is one style of play. Different players do well at ring games, short handed games, tournaments, sit and gos, limit, no limit, pot limit, spread limit, stud, hold'em, omaha, etc. Basically... this can be a test for who has the most skills heads up but is not necessarily the test for who is the best overall poker player.

[Fictive]

lol, this pic just seemed fitting to the earlier parts of the this thread. No sides taken, I just found it funny...

[Boilermaker]

In tournies I can eliminate 1 player alot easier than 8 players so I wouldn't say it would test my skillz, Many more aspects/phases to a 9man game, like increasing starting hand value as play goes from 9man to HU action.

Just winning any tournament HU or 9man for that matter doesn't say that you're better that any of those you beat. I think I can out play anybody any given day, but on the same hand I can be outplayed by some any given day.

If you can outplay (beat/win/kick a$$) the same set of people on a consistant basis, whether it be 9man or HU, that shows skill

All in all, whatever makes you a profit is a test of your skillz, there's lots of people that can't do that!

Best of luck at the tables!

[Wyte22]

Originally Posted by liladypokerpro I agree that HU for you is a true test to your skill because that is your forte' Wyte. But in general, with people who don't specialize in HU (like me), it takes me more skill just to make it to that point. Once I get there though, I have enough skill to at least give them a good run for their money, if not win altogether. So I guess what I'm saying is that regular ol' fashioned poker players probably see the true test as being able to make it to that point, whereas people who specialize in specific aspects of the game, like HU, will consider that to be their true test. Am I making any sense??? LOL

Ya I agree, winning consistently at your favorite game is skill. Showing profit is skill. I guess I play too much HU LOL

[tony]

Ok people all the off topic posts and arguing were deleted. I left only the posts which are connected to first thread and to the topic. Hey ungarstu132 I send you one personal message please read it.

[liladypokerpro]

LOL@ Fictive that is funny...I need that on my desktop as a wallpaper

[ungarstu132]

Originally Posted by tony Ok people all the off topic posts and arguing were deleted. I left only the posts which are connected to first thread and to the topic. Hey ungarstu132 I send you one personal message please read it.

one thing....i didnt get any personal message, fyi

second thing, my first post was completely valid, and exoressed my opinion SO, i would like an explaination as to why it was deleted. thank you

[tony]

Ok here is your post:

"lol, no actually HU is the easiest part of poker considering you know what your doing.......say it "WERE" the true test of skill, beating sombody twice doesnt make you good.....good job you know how to fold to an all in, and the idiot doesnt.....thats like saying, hey i can run a mile faster than you, and you run it in 8 minutes, and he runs it it 9 minutes, you beat him, but you still suck at running because an 8 minute mile is a joke......

why would the true test of skill be beating 1 other player, instead of beating 5 other players???

is a 2 person race easier to win than a 6 person race??

i like the post, next time do me the honor and let me answer a logical question"

I just did not liked this underlined part but ok I can put it back here. But all other posts by you and other guys were pure off topic. Also check your PM's I resent you my message

[Vito_Nuccio]

This is a good question, one that really does not have an answer. We can argue both sides of the point as to which requres more skill. Poker is a skill game with the luck factor sprinkled in good and bad from time to time.

It seems most here see heads up as the end of the game scenereo. The final two of 9 or 18 or hundreds. We should realize it is also a game in itself. There are two distinct games here, both requiring poker skills, all of them.

There is a big difference playing heads up where second place nets a nice payday versus nothing in a one on one match. When playing for hours and down to two you tend to play more aggressively, you are in the money and in deep. You may and should already have some feel and reads on this player. In a one on one match unless playing previously you must sit opposite this player and learn things on the fly with no consolation for a mistake.

I think this is a good question, like I stated before with no real answer. Great for debate. They all take skill, now go out and win some cash in what ever game you enjoy.

Later,

[PointerJake]

Thank you for the posts. Personally I feel that HU does test your skill, but like most of you have said it is not a true test of whether a person is a better poker player, but it is a true test a whether or not that person is a better heads up poker player. Points taken.

And I apoligize about the off topic stuff!

[frob23]

Originally Posted by PointerJake Thank you for the posts. Personally I feel that HU does test your skill, but like most of you have said it is not a true test of whether a person is a better poker player, but it is a true test a whether or not that person is a better heads up poker player. Points taken. And I apoligize about the off topic stuff!

For what it is worth, I apologize for causing 99% of the off topic stuff. You're an active and intelligent poster on these forums and I took offense to see your original post and your character attacked like that. Even though it wasn't really my business and letting sleeping dogs lie might have been the better choice. If I hadn't stirred that hornet's nest, this thread might not have become 75% insults. I did learn my lesson and found the ignore user list, which helped me stop responding in that manner.

I do think this was a valid question and I think you've gotten an array of valid answer. As I said, I find heads up to be my sort of game... The death by a thousand cuts. Other people do not find it to be their type of game. And I accept that this fact doesn't make them worse of a player. I do think they should work to improve it, especially if they are a tournament player in any respect because the best money is always in first, but they could easily be a really strong player without it.

[frob23]

Also, if you're interested in heads up... here is a set of 3 decent videos about the basic idea. It's Tony G... who is a jerk but still most of what he says is sound advice. There are a few things I don't agree with.

TonyG___Poker_Professor_Part_1
TonyG___Poker_Professor_Part_2
TonyG___Poker_Professor_Part_3

The funniest part of the whole video, as many people noted in the comments about it, is that Tony realizes the other guy's strategy of waiting for a big hand... comments aloud on it... and then three hands later misses the whole thing and ends up paying off a huge overbet on the river. He comments that he couldn't worry about the runner runner Aces after the guy check-raised him on the flop. Had it been runner-runner Ks, Js, or something else... and had the guy been making a lot of large bets on the river... I might agree with paying it off. But the guy had been playing passively and that bet was odd. Also, just because I guy plays passively doesn't mean he won't check/raise with an Ace in his hand on the flop especially if you've been firing at every single flop like Tony was. So runner, runner Aces is not always what I want to see. Anyway, I think Tony COULD have gotten away and saved the money... but oh well.

[PointerJake]

Love the video Frob! Funny when he says, "I just want to crush him", Thats exactly how I feel when I'm playing heads up. Good info too.