interesting hand

[stoffmakers]

0.10 0.25 6 man table, no reads. UTG limps, UTG + 1 makes it 0.5, i make it 1.75 with AK, 3 folds and they both call. flop is 444, UTG bets 5.6, and has like 5.4 left and i have him covered, UTG +1 folds and its to me, what do you do???

[irishpkr]

pretty easy fold imo

[Huskers314]

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What he said.

[wex_69]

Easy shove... theres no way they r limping a Pocket Pair UTG (MAYBE to trap with KK/AA). They arent calling a raise with A4 or K4 so the 4 is out. Then when he bets 5.4 theres no way he has AA or KK. have to be pretty stupid to bet that flop. He prolly had Ax

Easy shove IMO

[irishpkr]

Originally Posted by wex_69 Easy shove... theres no way they r limping a Pocket Pair UTG (MAYBE to trap with KK/AA). They arent calling a raise with A4 or K4 so the 4 is out. Then when he bets 5.4 theres no way he has AA or KK. have to be pretty stupid to bet that flop. He prolly had Ax Easy shove IMO

A lot of people think the best way to play pocket pairs is to limp, I've seen all manner of pairs being limped from all positions by donks. The problem is that by shoving, you're only getting called if you're beat here. I find it hard to believe that he is gonna even fold pocket 2s here :/
Basically you're never getting villian to lay down a full house. Usually you're gonna be drawing to 6outs, roughly 3 to 1 to win here, so its actually closer than at first inspection:

$5.60 in the pot pre, you're putting in $11 to win $11 + $5.6, need roughly 40% equity here.
We have about 28% when villian has a pair, and around 76% when he is unpaired say.

So for 40% equity 28x + (1-x)76 = 40

x= 0.75

So if you think villian is bluffing more than 25% of the time here, its right to call. Personally I can't put him on a bluff that often :/ Either way its high variance stuff

[saruzzu82]

no fold equity.
easy fold.

[liladypokerpro]

Agreed. Easy fold. Too many people put too much value on AK when it hasn't connected. Just let it go.

[stoffmakers]

so far only 2 out of 14 people that i have spoken to or have responded to this and on another site didnt say fold. as for the people who said fold here, im assuming you are putting him on pockets, and if you really think about it do you really see UTG showing up in this spot with a pocket pair?

[Jonathank]

call. easy call. nothing to think about.

[stoffmakers]

jonathonk, ur saying just to flat call his bet of 5.60 on the flop? and then what on the turn, when he undoubtedly pushes on the turn for his remaining 5.4, i pretty much have to call the rest there anyways, so why not just push him on the flop with the chance that he lays it down right there. of course this only applies if u actually mean call rather than raise.

[liladypokerpro]

Personally, if he already bet almost half his stack on the flop, I don't think he'll lay down his hand if you push him for his remaining 5.4........most people that do this type of move usually decide then and there that they are staying in no matter what........Just my experience and MO.........it really depends on what type of player you're dealing with and what kind of reads you've got on him before this hand, if any. It could be possible, although unlikely, that he could have the remaining 4, or that he could have a pocket pair of some kind........at any rate, I would not go that deep into the hand with nothing more than Ace high.

[frob23]

Originally Posted by Jonathank call. easy call. nothing to think about.

I do not think you can ever justify a call here. If you are going to play this hand, you're playing for his whole stack. If you play, you need to shove. There is no way that you can call on the flop and not call his shove on the turn... so you have more equity by shoving here and getting him to lay down unpaired bluffs. I do not think this is likely to be a bluff.

I would bet that most of the time we're looking at 6-6. 7-7, 8-8, or 9-9 here. Without running the numbers I know we're about a 3-1 dog against those hands with two cards to come. Since we're likely to be getting all the chips in on the turn, regardless of the card... we're being offered about $16.60-$11.00 to play this hand... 1.5-1 is not good enough if we think he has a pair. It's a little better if we think he might do this with some crazy unpaired hand (although I discount that much of the time) and we can get a fold by shoving.

Personally, I am folding most of the time here for this size bet with the stack and pot sizes we know. With a better read on the villain, I might be shoving. I am never calling. If he is making this bet with something like Q-J suited... I am not going to give him a free shot at hitting the Q or the J and putting me far behind when I can't possibly fold.


Edit: Of course, there are more than just those 4 pocket pairs... but that would be my guess most of the time with how they have been played.

[Brooklynbum]

Push or fold...calling is the weakest play here.

[I Eat Gamblers]

Calling is out of the question, you have to fold or put him all-in personally i would fold due to the simple fact that he my have a low pp, which would account for the limping in pre-flop.

[PointerJake]

I would throw it away in a heart beat, unless I knew for sure he was a clown. But if you play AK all in there you are the clown, and most likely chasing.

[IFixlexus]

Easy fold.
There are a lot of good thoughts here from a variety of diff people, but I don't see how you can justify a call here.
If he doesn't have a PP here or AK himself, then what would he possibly commit half of his buy in with?
Even if you had a strong read on this guy's line, I don't see any possible way you can make a call or shove here.
The more I even try to think about it, it's a no-brain fold.

[stoffmakers]

thanks for the input guys, but heres what i did, against most of ur advice lol. my initial thought was to fold, but then i started to think about it. i started to really doubt that he would just limp in and cold call my reraise pre based on his stack. when he bet the thought, i put him on some sort of A that was weaker than AK. so i ended up pushing him and he actually folded! when i told him i had AK, he said he had A10. btw had this been for higher stakes, i prob would have folded, although that shouldnt really make a diff. interestingly enough, my friend posted this hand at my request on another site of his, sngicons.com. and some guys got into some pretty deep math that was beyond my poker thinking, but their math said contradictory things, 1 guy saying fold another saying call. so if any of you could provide any further math, id be intrigued. also lemme guys know if u have any follow up questions.

[IFixlexus]

Well, I think a limp, call is a somewhat standard play with small pocket pairs at that level. His line of thinking maybe to see a cheap flop hope to set up. After your pre flop raise, now he'd probably be thinking that if he does trip up he gets all of your chips.
I just think it's easier to put him on a pair here than a weaker Ace.
Congrats on the win, but I think you'll lose your stack far more than you'll win theirs.

For him to fold after committing half of his stack on the flop was retarded.
I think your play here was bad, but his was obv a bit worse.

[stoffmakers]

iflixlexus, is it really that retarded for him to fold with A10 when i push him. hes getting like 5-1 and if i have an underpair, hes a 3-1 dog. if i have JJ-KK, hes a 5-1 dog, if i have AJ/AQ/AK, hes a 6-1 dog, and if i have AA or a 4, hes pretty much drawing dead.

[IFixlexus]

I don't think it was retarded for him to fold, especially since he was behind. I should have been more specific. I think it was retarded for him to jam half his stack into the pot without the intent to shove the rest in regardless of the turn. If he continually plays that way, he'll definetely go bust with the quickness. If you play to try to make somebody else fold you'll end up being a losing player.
In the words of Doyle Brunson, "there's no sense putting in good money after bad" and I firmly believe that. The hand as a whole was played badly.