KK after this flop: What would you do here?

[iceveins0901]

Originally Posted by Brooklynbum FYI, I've stacked many a player by flat calling a huge raise with small Party Poker and destroying a person who overplays AA or KK. Also I've folded AA and KK in those situations where I think I'm beat. Whether I think I'm right or not isn't the point. I'm simply stating that folding AA or KK in that situation can save you significant money. I've done it whether you believe it or not. Another thing is that I doubt you're facing a big pair (10/10-QQ for example) otherwise you'd see a re-raise pre-flop. In my opinion it was obvious the other player was playing a small pair (or you'd have to give him/her credit for holding a small pocket pair) and you'd have to give him/her credit for that if they're going flat call a big raise pre-flop. That's a fact. If I was in EP I'd re-raise and then fold to a push but since I'm in position on this hand, I know this guy has a strong hand (why bet $9 if you don't have a monster, then I can call and set mine). Hey risking $9 to win over $100 is definitely good implied odds if I can hit my set plus I'm in position on this hand which gives me the advantage of allowing a guy to overplay his monster Party Poker and stack the guy.

THERE!!!

It is not just me, its something with the Word Filter! I thought I was going crazy, which I probably still am.

My thoughts are back on page one, if you dont know your opponent, all in

I actually damn near layed down QQ in a spot just like this one with all low cards, and a check raise back to me on the turn. I knew my opponent and really thought he could have a set and should lay it down, but i didnt, I just check called the river, cost me an extra $47 in the hand for not laying it down, but I made the right read, and in time, I will be able to begin to lay those down. It just takes time, experience, and understanding of this crazy game of ours to be able to lay something like this down.

[edit] and I see on page two you guys figured it out as well, I should read farther ahead next time.

[edit2]

Since set mining is being discussed, in the odds post stated you needed 8.3~ to 1, or 8 to 1 to play correctly for your set, this is saying in order to call a $3 bet, you would need $24~ already in the pot to make the call correct. Implied odds and suck outs aside, the 1 time you hit your set and win, you win $24, the 8 other times you call and lose, you lose $24 total, equaling a break even play, which is why you need proper odds to call in the first place. Your odds have not changed or gotten worse when you call and lose, they are what they are.

[irishpkr]

Originally Posted by iceveins0901 THERE!!! I actually damn near layed down QQ in a spot just like this one with all low cards, and a check raise back to me on the turn. and I see on page two you guys figured it out as well, I should read farther ahead next time. Since set mining is being discussed, in the odds post stated you needed 8.3~ to 1, or 8 to 1 to play correctly for your set, this is saying in order to call a $3 bet, you would need $24~ already in the pot to make the call correct. Implied odds and suck outs aside, the 1 time you hit your set and win, you win $24, the 8 other times you call and lose, you lose $24 total, equaling a break even play, which is why you need proper odds to call in the first place. Your odds have not changed or gotten worse when you call and lose, they are what they are.

You CAN fold an overpair here, but it you would have to be so deep to do it in a reraised pot. Even in the given hand at the start of the thread, if he bets like $25 instead of shoving, he will get insane odds to call if check raised anyway, something like 4:1 or 5:1 or something. I can only see getting away from KK if we're playing 200BB, maybe even 300BB deep.

As for getting away from QQ, its possible to get away in a raised pot, but if its a reraised pot at 100BB, more than likely a bet on the flop and turn will have you all in anyway.

As for the odds you mentioned, there is no way you will ever get 8 to 1 on your money in direct odds: this basically means the whole full ring table has limped in/called a raise. Implied odds are critical to the decision, and should hopefully be 15to1 or better, preferably 18+to1

[yodals]

He was very lucky to make an out with actually a poor pocket pair preflop. If I was in his shoes I'd have folded that nasty 55 with such a raise. I think you actually made the right call and that hand would win more times that it lost agaist his.

Bad luck on the bad beat, but bear this in mind. When I used to play Full Tilt (and this is 100% true) I once lost twice in five hands with quads. And yes that really hurt the bank balance!

Put it down to just one unlucky hand and kick butt next time around!

[fleabit1]

Unlucky.
I believe you played it ok tho, I get my money in here too.
I wouldnt worry about it too much,more often than not ur getting paid off here.

[liladypokerpro]

hehe hey emoney....I feel your pain man....I lost KK last night to a freakin 6-3 off that the guy just refused to let go of no matter what I bet into him he caught his second pair on the river...there was no flush draw and no straight draw...the board was a blank...AND he was OOP...bad thing is, I had a very tight table image...so he had no real reason to chase me...I think he was just tilted because he lost to another player in a previous hand...so yeah, it happens, just shake it off...

[emoneypitt]

Wow! Some lively talk here and a lot of good discussion about set mining. Thanks for all of the responses everyone

Yes, as far as the hand in question here, I felt I really had no other choice but to push. It is +EV in the long run.

[Wallace]

Why is everyone commending the push all in? YES you should be going for his stack with AA/KK here but the only thing thats calling that bet is a set, A3 or 2 pairs.

Your far more likely to get a caller with a drawing hand or paired ace-rag if you bet $20-$25 on the flop then stack off on the turn...

I think the push all in is in fear of making a bad call if you get re-raised and as has been debated I don't think your laying down KK here to a re-raise but a smaller bet might entice action.

By pushing all in you either take down the pot whilst ahead or stack off whilst behind, there's more value to be built here...

[bk6070]

thats a lot of reading

[irishpkr]

Well if we bet $25 on the flop, we're sooo committed anyway. Villian has A3 here like never. A set is possible. But I've already said that there are 9combos of sets, and many more combos of overpairs he will go all in with.

EDIT: Villian never has a drawing hand here, this is like the driest board in a 3bet pot

[Jonathank]

the only thing i object to in that hand is the $3 in rake.

[st_ever]

Sorry i never read any posts except the OP. (Too Lazy)

A check on the flop may have saved you. The action could have been so hot you could have got away but a likely scenario is check x 3. Then on the turn you will have to lead out and still be in trouble. If you bet 1/2 pot on the flop you are committed have to call a shove on the flop but anyway you would be committed for further streets.So all in all i would probably have checked then depending on the action either got it in on turn or fold the flop.

you are still 10% to win the hand after the flop and ~2% to tie.

Like i said i never read any of the other posts i seen a couple that said fold. But for the guys who say to fold how do you go about this. Check - fold on that flop witj only one bet is very weak and hugely exploitable. If there is a b et re raise i can see you letting that go like i said that is what i would do.

How is it my posts never seem to make any sense!!