KK after this flop: What would you do here?

[emoneypitt]

I was playing some 6-handed $50 NL tonight when this situation came up: I get dealt KK on BB. The guy to my left (Seat 4) was first to act and calls in with $0.50. Second to act pot raises to $2.25. Guy to my right (Seat 2) was horrible player who was just getting lucky a lot. He calls the initial raise.. I then raise 4x to $9.00 hoping for just one call to see the flop. To my horror, all 3 other people just flat call and there is a big pot with the flop coming. So 254 flops with no flush draw. Donk to my right checks and now it's now my turn. I realized that someone could have AA here but with the way the table had been playing, I decided just to go for it and push. Here's what happened.........

Full Tilt Poker Game #6433238845: Table Pagosa (6 max) - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:41:46 ET - 2008/05/15
Seat 1: PeelaHundo ($56.20)
Seat 2: trieuphu ($106.45)
Seat 3: emoneypitt ($55.10)
Seat 4: Neutronstar ($150.60)
Seat 5: WhyDaddyDrinks ($64.30)
Seat 6: Secsbox ($50)
trieuphu posts the small blind of $0.25
emoneypitt posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to emoneypitt [Kh Kc]
Neutronstar calls $0.50
WhyDaddyDrinks raises to $2.25
Secsbox folds
PeelaHundo folds
trieuphu calls $2
emoneypitt raises to $9
Neutronstar calls $8.50
WhyDaddyDrinks calls $6.75
trieuphu calls $6.75
*** FLOP *** [2c 5s 4h]
trieuphu checks
emoneypitt bets $46.10, and is all in
Neutronstar calls $46.10
WhyDaddyDrinks folds
trieuphu has 15 seconds left to act
trieuphu folds
emoneypitt shows [Kh Kc]
Neutronstar shows [5h 5d]
*** TURN *** [2c 5s 4h] [Jd]
*** RIVER *** [2c 5s 4h Jd] [9s]
emoneypitt shows a pair of Kings
Neutronstar shows three of a kind, Fives
Neutronstar wins the pot ($125.20) with three of a kind, Fives
emoneypitt adds $50
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $128.20 | Rake $3
Board: [2c 5s 4h Jd 9s]
Seat 1: PeelaHundo (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: trieuphu (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: emoneypitt (big blind) showed [Kh Kc] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 4: Neutronstar showed [5h 5d] and won ($125.20) with three of a kind, Fives
Seat 5: WhyDaddyDrinks folded on the Flop
Seat 6: Secsbox didn't bet (folded)

I know this is sort of a bad beat since the guy got lucky and flopped the 2 outer but I'm looking for some input as to how you would have played this situation.

First of all, how many of you would even call off 18 BB with a pair of 5's first to act after a significant reraise? And what would you have done after this kind of flop in this situation?

[MikeyInc]

well remember its GAMBLING in order to Win you have to What? Exactly!. Good Play in My Book !

Sorry for the Bad Beat

[allthatremains]

I make the same play.

[dew12109]

I recently had a similar situation. KK against a flop of 852... I was playing a lower limit, but eventually had $10 in the pot as all in. The guy showed down trip deuces. Hard to swallow sometimes, but it happens.

[Brooklynbum]

I think you could've saved money on this hand.

Letting go of AA is a hard thing to do but if you want to be a real good cash game player you should be able to lay that down if you think you're beat.

The way I see it - pushing was a bad move on the flop. You could've had the same results by betting $20-$25 on the flop and be able to get away from your AA if you get a smooth call or a check raise.

It's not unreasonable to be going up against a set here. As any pocket pair is pretty good in a short handed cash game.

If I'm holding a pocket pair and facing a raise pre-flop I'd call just to set mine for the implied odds. I know if I can hit a set and the other guy has a monster, I'm going to stack him/her and make a lot of money.

I know this by experience, I've folded big hands when I think I'm beat. I may not always be right but I know I've saved a lot of money by doing that.

Hope this helps.

[irishpkr]

Originally Posted by Brooklynbum I think you could've saved money on this hand. Letting go of AA is a hard thing to do but if you want to be a real good cash game player you should be able to lay that down if you think you're beat.

I'm having a hard time comprehending this. I mean yes fold if you're beat, but you have to get your stack in, you lose to a set, of which there are 9 combinations. You beat any pair that he calls with, lets say even if his range is TT-QQ, theres 18 combinations right off the bat. To fold here would be madness, Sparta even. Then there's all the crazy shit he might call with.

You have roughly, ONE POT SIZE BET on the flop, there is no room to get away here. Infact, you should be dying to get your stack in here.

Originally Posted by Brooklynbum If I'm holding a pocket pair and facing a raise pre-flop I'd call just to set mine for the implied odds. I know if I can hit a set and the other guy has a monster, I'm going to stack him/her and make a lot of money.

To cold-call a reraise like that is simply put, burning money. Here we can see that the coldcaller is getting only roughly 8 to 1 implied odds, a universe away from what you need for set mining to be profitable. Ofcourse this doesnt factor in people to act behind, you might get another coldcaller or two to sweeten the odds, but you're still not getting good odds, and theres no guarentee of stacking the guy either.

And what if you get raised after you call? You've just tossed $9 away.

Really no need to post such ROT (results oriented thinking) on such a standard hand as this. Played it grand, though I'd raise to like $10 preflop, its only a minor detail

[Brooklynbum]

FYI,

I've stacked many a player by flat calling a huge raise with small Party Poker and destroying a person who overplays AA or KK.

Also I've folded AA and KK in those situations where I think I'm beat. Whether I think I'm right or not isn't the point. I'm simply stating that folding AA or KK in that situation can save you significant money. I've done it whether you believe it or not.

Another thing is that I doubt you're facing a big pair (10/10-QQ for example) otherwise you'd see a re-raise pre-flop. In my opinion it was obvious the other player was playing a small pair (or you'd have to give him/her credit for holding a small pocket pair) and you'd have to give him/her credit for that if they're going flat call a big raise pre-flop.

That's a fact. If I was in EP I'd re-raise and then fold to a push but since I'm in position on this hand, I know this guy has a strong hand (why bet $9 if you don't have a monster, then I can call and set mine). Hey risking $9 to win over $100 is definitely good implied odds if I can hit my set plus I'm in position on this hand which gives me the advantage of allowing a guy to overplay his monster PP and stack the guy.

[irishpkr]

Even risking $9 to win $100 isnt good odds for a small pair, you need AT A BARE MINIMUM 15:1. I'm not gonna go through all the maths, as some kind folks have already done that for us, I'm sure google would show it up. And you're not even guarenteed getting $9 to win $100 lol, theres no guarentee you get other people to call, or someone might reraise behind you.

You've folded AA or KK, well done, but this isnt the board to do it on in a reraised pot.

I dont put him on a small pair because you'd have to be pretty bad to coldcall there with a small pair. And there are so many more small pairs that he can call with even if we go with your flawed play. You need to be ahead here roughly 40% of the time, using rough guesstimation here. You are beaten by 9 combos of sets. Basically, if he has 7combos or more of worse pairs, you should call. A pair of say, 88, counts for 6combos alone. Already this is a pretty easy call. Ofcourse you can beat here by a set, but there are so many combos of hands that you similarly have drawing to 2 outs.

[saruzzu82]

PUSH preflop OMG!
Good post by irish, he said the basis of set-mining, best post i have read in this site.

[HeyKidMove]

I believe the correct odds to set mine are 10-1, not 15-1. I do think you could have bet less on the flop, but if you face a raise it's still a tough fold. Thats a rough spot, but you probably should have slowed down with that many people seeing the flop, it's very likely that you're beat.

[MikeyInc]

i think it was the right move .. and 7 of 10 are Wins

[saruzzu82]

there is not a sure correct odds for sets mining because it is a bet opponent depent. sure is best set mining versus tighest player because they have often overpair/toppair.
However i heard about 1:12, sure it is between 10-15 : 1
i think 15 better that 10.

[irishpkr]

You'll hit a set like 1 in 8 times or so I believe, but don't forget all those times you don't get paid, and all the times you end up losing anyway. Ends up you need probably more than 15to1 lol

[liladypokerpro]

Regarding the posts by Brooklynbum...I understand what you are saying...it's the same type of thing I do, and when I try to explain it, nobody understands why. Just wanted to let you know you're not the only one who knows what you are talking about

[Brooklynbum]

Thanks LilLadypokerpro. I'm glad there are like minded players out there like myself.

All things considered playing low pocket pairs and calling to a big pre-flop raise is exactly what I'm looking for if I'm set mining and looking to stack an opponent. The orignal poster gave a perfect scenario of set mining and he lost his stack because of it.

The flop was perfect if i was playing 55, 22 or 44. I'm betting that other players are so overconfident about their AA or KK that I know I'm going to get paid off nicely for their overconfidence.

With 3 or more players in the pot, then I'm getting the right odds to set mine because I know I can maybe stack more than 1 player especially with a board of 2, 4, 5. Then you're looking for a really big payoff for your $9 investment.

It is exactly against players like those who raise big with AA or KK to think that there's no way somebody could call with small pocket pairs and bingo, they're overconfident and betting like they got the goods, that's when I stick it to them.

That's just my style and my opinion, to each his own.

Good luck at the tables everyone...

[irishpkr]

Ofcourse this is the ideal scenario, and for arguments sake, lets say that 9to1 is what you need as implied odds.

You hit your set 9 in 1 times, so in other words, for calling with the small pair to be +EV, you need to get the opponents stack EVERY time you hit. You'll lose $10 for every call and miss, and make $90 when you call and hit, but he has to stack off. Your opponent might have AK and not put another dime in. He might have a higher set. He might hit a flush. Basically I'm just repeating the obvious theme from the original hand - there was never set mining odds on here, and having to rely on getting 1/2 callers behind who will also go allin is hoping for a bit too much

[frob23]

Originally Posted by Brooklynbum FYI, I've stacked many a player by flat calling a huge raise with small Party Poker and destroying a person who overplays AA or KK. ... That's a fact. If I was in EP I'd re-raise and then fold to a push but since I'm in position on this hand, I know this guy has a strong hand (why bet $9 if you don't have a monster, then I can call and set mine). Hey risking $9 to win over $100 is definitely good implied odds if I can hit my set plus I'm in position on this hand which gives me the advantage of allowing a guy to overplay his monster Party Poker and stack the guy.

What is up with the Party Poker thing here? I can't imagine people making this mistake so often (here and in another thread) and this close together. Something has to be going on.

[Brooklynbum]

I figured it out with the Party Poker thing.

Everytime you put in P P (to signify pocket pair) together the site writes out Party Poker....i.e.

Party Poker...try it.

[The FTP Prodigy]

Yeah you do hit a set about 1 time every 9 flops, but it doesnt mean you lose the pot everytime if u don't hit your set. If your in there with pockets tens and you don't hit a set, it doesn't mean that your going to check fold???? NO! your going to try to take the pot down. Only extremely tight passive players would lose every pot that they've entered if they did not complete their set.

Thanks, The FTP Prodigy

[irishpkr]

Then you arent set mining then! The idea was low pocket pairs can be played in a reraised pot with 100BB stacks, which is not the case. Even TT I wouldnt be too happy about playing here.