Value of suited connectors

[st_ever]

I have been watching a lot of videos on PokerSavvyPlus. In all of them the pro's say they will raise suited connectors but not un suited connectors in certain positions. S o i decided to do some calculations on the difference in value. In both cases a heads up scenario.

Suited Connector:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.936% 45.68% 02.25% 958257237 47242205.50 { 8h7h }
Hand 1: 52.064% 49.81% 02.25% 1044830752 47242205.50 { random }

Un suited Connector:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.051% 42.69% 02.36% 895522755 49450649.00 { 8h7d }
Hand 1: 54.949% 52.59% 02.36% 1103148347 49450649.00 { random }

So against a random hand the % win rate of suited versus un suited connecotrs is only ~3%. This is very marginal.

Could anyone explaiun to me why this makes such a large difference. Especially when if you take 8 9 unsuited has a higgher win rate than 78 suited but this is still not a raise. I'm totally bafffled.

Or if anyone just wants to add what there opinion is on rasing suited/unsuited connectors in heads up, 6 max, full ring.

[allthatremains]

Good post. - I've questioned this myself and look forward to responses as well.

One thing raising only the suited connectors does is it keeps you from raising too many hands and also varies your play, so that your not only raising high cards and pocket pairs. On top of that, even at 3% you are raising the better connectors.

[Greco_]

The power of rasing with suited connectors is because they flop much better than unsuited connectors.

With the right flop, you can flop 14 outs with open ended straight and the flush which would make you a favourite against a huge range.

The advantage of raising in late position with these is the abiltiy to control the pot and take a free card if you see fit.

Also the main benefit of raising and thus having the lead in the hand is that you can put pressure on made hands and make them fold. The calculations are correct but playing SCs in late position and aggressively will win many a pot without showdown, with the confidence that if you are being called you usually have 9 outs for the flush and various other straight/2 pair combos.

In short, SCs are not significantly better than USCs in a random race, but when played in position and with aggression can be played much more profitably than unsuited cards.

Hope this is clear and helps (?)

[frob23]

Also, in weak limit games, suited connectors have a lot of value because that 3% can make a large difference when there are a lot of people in the pot and you do make the flush to take down a huge pot.

I like something Slansky said on the topic and that is: "... if your suitedness increased your changes of winning from, say, 16 percent to 20 percent, this is not a 4 percent increase but rather a 25 percent increase!"

In that original post's own numbers, your getting a 6.4% increase in your chances of winning when the 8-7 is suited as opposed to when it's not. Against one player the increase doesn't seem that dramatic... but when playing a multi-handed pot (when your odds aren't nearly 50% pre-flop)... it can be quite dramatic.

Still the value from raising it and ending up heads-up is that it gives your opponents more reason to suspect a later raise might not mean a premium hand, makes it harder for them to know if you hit the flop when it comes all medium or low cards, and it gives you the lead in the hand so that you can follow through and take the pot when your opponent misses the flop. Raising against one player is more likely to increase your odds of winning without a showdown. The percentage increase matters more when you're highly likely to showdown the hand (like in a multiway pot). You don't want to raise with unsuited connectors because, as mentioned, it would mean you're playing too many hands and you're likely to get played back at with weaker holdings and be caught guessing a lot.

[Jonathank]

3% isn't marginal. 3% edge is huge over a larger sample.

[Brooklynbum]

Cash or tourney???

[st_ever]

I was talking about cash but what is the startegy for tourneys?

I play a very tag style of tourney poker so for me i very rarely raise asuited connector out of position. So when raising a SC in a tourney surely the 3% becomes marginal again rather than profitable iver a large sample size in a cash game??!?

[TheyNeverLearn]

Can you put what you mean somehow without the % because I don't really know about that and it is a little confusing for me, but I am interested to know what is the right way to play with suited connectors. Thanks

[TheyNeverLearn]

I will check back for a reply tomorrow, I have to go to bed I have work in like an hour and a half hahaha

Have a good night or morning every one

[Wallace]

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 85.204% 84.93% 00.27% 10689050508 34206936.00 { AA }
Hand 1: 14.796% 14.52% 00.27% 1827970020 34206936.00 { random }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 82.396% 82.12% 00.28% 10334823348 35030880.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 17.604% 17.33% 00.28% 2180549292 35030880.00 { random }

Just to compare what 3% vs any random means, it's the difference between KK and AA pre flop.

It's easy to see the difference between AA and KK postflop, KK on an ace board loses any kind of power against resistance.

Same with suited connectors, if you flop a gutshot with 89o it's pretty worthless but if you flop a gutshot with a flush draw you can play the hand very hard confident that your never a massive dog and so you'll take down more than just the 3% (from situations where you'd get a better hand to fold and didn't hit your straight/flush).

As far as what the percentages mean:

The win % is how many times the hand wins and the tie % is how many times it ties (against other stated hands/community cards)

The equity value is a combination of the wins and ties and tells you what percentage of the money you'd win if you played the pot an infinate amount of times.

Generally vs "any random" 2 cards are pretty meaningless as it includes hands like 23o etc.

[st_ever]

Thanks Wallace it all kind of makes sense now. I never thought of it that way.

[Vito_Nuccio]

PRO: A non math reason for suited connector argument is if your hand consists of lower to mid suited connectors you have a good chance that both of your cards are live. Holdem players like big cards, so your connectors should be live. As stated before, you do and can flop big multiple draws with these hands and can take down large pots when the hand hits.

CON: Suited connectors is a drawing hand. Even AK suited loses to any pair. Without help, the suited connectors often end up in the muck. Even when flopping top pair (unless AK), you can run into kicker issues.

Play the suited connectors, but do not auto play them like you were dealt AA. Determine the situation and play accordingly.

Bye,

[Brooklynbum]

I agree with Vito.

The key with suited connectors is that you have to gamble with them. If you want to take down a large pot then you might have to call a big pre-flop bet with them and hope you hit the board right. Then you can take down a huge pot, especially if the other player is holding a huge pocket pair. Or you can raise with them representing a much stronger hand.

I don't really advocate limping in with them though but that's a matter of opinion.

[emoneypitt]

Originally Posted by Brooklynbum I agree with Vito. The key with suited connectors is that you have to gamble with them. If you want to take down a large pot then you might have to call a big pre-flop bet with them and hope you hit the board right. Then you can take down a huge pot, especially if the other player is holding a huge pocket pair. Or you can raise with them representing a much stronger hand. I don't really advocate limping in with them though but that's a matter of opinion.

I pretty much feel the same way as far as playing the suited connectors.

As far as unsutied connectors, I only play them if I can get in cheap and it depends on position.