Whats the difference

[MLGstacked]

Iv'e played a lot of poker. Over the years i've discovered that I prefer and am much better at trnys than cash games. I want to get better. I know there are a lot of differences between the 2 and I would like to hear your opinion on which you like better and what your opinions and strategies are. I need some tips for cash games. Thanks

[123bird]

Originally Posted by MLGstacked I've played a lot of poker. Over the years I've discovered that I prefer and am much better at trnys than cash games. I want to get better. I know there are a lot of differences between the 2 and I would like to hear your opinion on which you like better and what your opinions and strategies are. I need some tips for cash games. Thanks

I've found that if you play tourneys worth $10 or more you'll find a lot less monkeys.
I also like to play 9 plus person sit-&-go's $10 or more
The higher the cost of playing I find that you not only get a better game but not to many people will continually monkey (donk)

[mollila]

In tournaments you have a limited stack, and need to play according to how much you can afford to invest in pots. Increasing blinds are also a factor.

In cash games you theoritically have an unlimited stack, and therefore only need to think about the propabilites of playing a hand in that situation. You can get involved in more pots.

[always2away]

in tourny play (tp) you simply cannot exhibit the same level of patience as you should be exhibiting in cash play (cp). with tp the always increasing blinds demand that you must be looser and more aggressive, playing the other players, playing from position, playing situations and THEN considering your pocket cards, whereas with cp it is patience, patience and more patience, waiting for the premium or semipremium hands (pocket pairs down to 10/10 and maybe AK, AQ unless position and situation allow you play smaller pairs or smaller connectors AND never forget that suited cards only means a 3% advantage)

[frob23]

Originally Posted by MLGstacked Iv'e played a lot of poker. Over the years i've discovered that I prefer and am much better at trnys than cash games. I want to get better. I know there are a lot of differences between the 2 and I would like to hear your opinion on which you like better and what your opinions and strategies are. I need some tips for cash games. Thanks

In addition to what others have said, the relative stack sizes in a cash game make the options you have during a hand much wider. In a tournament, you might be playing with 20 big blinds in front of you -- more or less. In a cash game you might be playing with 100, 200, 500, or even more. Online most places cap the buy-in to 100-200BB... but live I have seen caps as high as 300BB or higher. Private games typically have no upper cap to the buy-in. That said, I do know a local card-room that caps the buy-in at 50BB... so the hands typically play more like tournament hands with respect to the stack sizes. As a personal matter, I like a minimum of 100BB to play... and prefer stacks even deeper than that.

The first thing these larger stacks do is increase the implied odds you can expect from a hand. If everyone has really deep stacks at the table, hitting a set with a small pair or a straight with something like 5-7 suited could have a return that makes the original pre-flop call correct. Not that these hands are always playable... but in late position, with deep enough stacks and a couple callers, I am usually strongly considering seeing a flop with them. Depending on stack sizes in a tournament, I am usually folding. I just can't get the return I need to make playing them worth while. Even if another player had a large enough stack to give me the right odds if I could get them all-in... the fact that he can't refill reduces the probability of it happening enough that I can't reasonably play them.

In a cash game, pre-flop all-ins are almost never the correct play. The stacks are just too deep for reasonable betting to get you all-in. Even with K-K vs. A-A... it is very very rare to see an all-in pre-flop with stacks 200BB+. All-ins on the flop, in a cash game, are also almost never the correct play. These are the two most common places to get all-in during a tournament because your stack size, combined with the early betting, makes any play after the flop commit you anyway. In a cash game, I find that most of my largest bets are on the turn. If someone is going to get all-in, the turn is likely to be the place. Getting all-in is rare in a cash game but it does happen. It almost never happens on the river unless the pot has grown so large that an all-in is much less than the size of the pot.

Typically, in a cash game, bets on the river are smaller and are meant to be called. Players bet the river for value, not to get you off a hand. There's always exceptions and bluffing does happen but a nice reasonable or small sized bet on the river is probably the best hand's last attempt to make more money on this pot.

Because the serious money decisions take place later in the hand, post-flop play is much more important than pre-flop. You're going to need to read the board and understand how it could hit someone's hand... and in NL you're going to have to do this nearly perfectly every single time. You can't always fear the nuts but you must be able to look at the board with the turn out and know exactly what the nuts are... and the probability that the hand could have been played to that point.

Patience is very important. You're going to be folding a lot of hands. And, even more irritating, after folding a lot of hands you'll get A-K in hearts make a reasonable raise, get called in three spots anyway... have a flop like 7-8-9 with two clubs and from the action on the flop know you need to let it go. There's nothing worse than folding a dozen hands, getting a decent hand, and having to fold it anyway.

[bigmac208]

lol me to like sometimes when they have tourneys and u need passwords to regiuster and the tourney is real money i play those and when i have money i only play private tourneys

[infinii]

frob23, that is one of the BESTEST postings I've read on this issue EVER.

I am mostly an mtt player and have been struggling to make the switch to the cash game. I am slowly finding my leaks but it's still -ev atm. As of late, I've made some minor changes to my mtt game and it seems to be working (or I'm on a heater)..but sadly I cannot say the same for my cash game yet.

[sledracer01]

the biggest difference in cash tourney, is that in a cash game ur goignt o find more people play a lot losser hands because they know at any point in time they can re buy for more money , but in a tourney people r trying to last the longest and be the winner so ur going to wind that there going to play only premeium hands.

[frob23]

Originally Posted by sledracer01 the biggest difference in cash tourney, is that in a cash game ur goignt o find more people play a lot losser hands because they know at any point in time they can re buy for more money , but in a tourney people r trying to last the longest and be the winner so ur going to wind that there going to play only premeium hands.

Well, this may be correct in some cases. And it certainly does describe my experience with really low limits and small stack cash games. The main problem I have with it is that it's backwards. Tournament survival depends on increasing your chip-stack. Because the blinds are always rushing up behind you, there isn't enough time to wait for premium hands. You need to make a move and get in there and pick up chips. The correct play, especially deeper into the tournament, is aggressive play. Not loose play... but aggression with hands which figure to be ahead. You'll be pushing a lot more marginal edges and depending a lot more on fold equity when making a bet with a hand. It's this reason that you might make a large bet with A-10 (or even a much weaker hand) from the cut-off after it's folded around to you. The chip increase from picking up the blinds without a contest is probably worth the bet. In some cases, the money already in the pot will represent a gain of more than 10% of your stack.

In a cash game, picking up the blinds means less. If you're playing 300BB deep, picking up the blinds will increase your stack by 1.5BB ... about 0.5%. This means you have much less of an incentive to play a marginal hand. With a very deep stack, the mathematically correct play is to be more conservative. You stand to gain very little (proportionately) by risking chips on a weak hand compared to how much you're putting at risk by getting involved in the pot. Do I still open with a raise from the cut-off with A-10? Yes, most likely... but I am going to be extremely cautious if I get called or someone plays back at me. Usually people who play deep-stacks know that risking their entire stack with a marginal hand isn't worth it so you're likely to see action only from better hands. Sure, you can always rebuy but that doesn't make it right to invest money with a poor hand.

If you are going to play a marginal hand, you want it to be one that will make you a lot of money if you hit the flop strongly but be very easy to get away from if you don't. This is one reason that I would rather call a raise with 9-8 suited than A-10. With the 9-8, if I don't flop two-pair or better... or a strong draw... I am out of the hand when someone bets. With A-10... if the flop comes A-J-7... and someone bets out... suddenly I have a hard decision to make. Against most of the hands I could be facing, I have serious kicker problems. If the flop comes 10-6-2 rainbow (about as good as it gets for this hand), I am still in serious trouble if I am up against an over-pair or several other plausible hands. And, even if I am not already dead... if a K, Q, or J comes... I may have to let my hand go on the turn. It gets even worse if the cards are close together and possible straight draws are out or there are two cards of the same suit because almost a dozen cards become hazardous on the turn and, again, I may have to be folding to serious action.

There are many poor players who do play very loose in a cash game. If you find yourself at a table with them, you must tighten up even more because you'll be facing 5 or 6 limpers seeing the flops with almost any two cards... and you run a greater risk of them hitting the oddest looking flops. Generally, the loosest players won't sit with 200BB or more because they will be loosing too much money too quickly. At 100BB (which is pretty normal for online games), they still are going to be steady money losers... and might resort to buying in short so they risk losing less with the second best hand when they have it -- and they often will. Depending on the limits you are playing at, how many people are on the table, and the general knowledge of the game the other players have... a cash game should be tighter than a tournament. It's not often the case... and the reverse is too often true... How many times have I seen someone blinded off in a tournament waiting for Aces? How many times have I seen someone open-shove 150+BB in a cash game? Probably too many to count. But these should be the exceptions and not the rule.

Note: Another reason it pays to be tighter in a cash game is that you're going to be strongly betting hands you do play. The idea is to get the other players to put as much money as possible in while they have the worst hand. Since you'll be trying to slowly build a pot large enough to entice them to keep playing without scaring them away, you are going to invest much more than 1 or 2 BBs on a hand. Not all those hands will pan out... and money you don't lose spends just as well as money won. Invest money on the best hands... cut your losses on those which don't figure to return a profit.


Edit: Also keep in mind that the depth of your stack is not the number of chips you have on the table. It is related to the number of chips the other person has also. If you have a 300BB stack and on the flop are alone in a pot with someone who has a 50BB stack... you're not playing deep-stack poker for that hand. Your stack is effectively 50BB, as is his. If most of the players you are playing have large stacks also, this applies more. If most have very short stacks then your options are limited to the depth of their stack. Usually the minimum buy-in for a table determines if it's going to be deep-stack or not, unless you're against players who understand the value of buying in for the max (which is the smart move).

[MADDAMGAZZEL]

if you are looking for consistent profit, go with sngos, and alot of them at a time.
cash games much larger swings, therefore smaller st deviation from you expected earnings=happier player

i personally play 6 $20s at a time, about 30 a day
with an avg return of $6 per tourney over 1000 tourneys,
consistency is key
tournaments, tournaments, tournaments

[infinii]

frob23,

When you say that playing on a cash table, we should be alot tighter. Exactly how tight do you mean? Let's say on a NL25 or NL50 6 max, what vp$ip/pfr would you constitute as tight? I think I usually play around 24/17.

I recently joined Cardrunners and I can say by watching their videos that, they are far from tight. They are pure LAG and these guys are extremely profitable cash players.

[frob23]

There are many factors which determine how tight you should be playing at a cash game. I do not have stats for my own hands because I play online on Unix and can't get the tracking programs to work but I keep my own records and am familiar with them. Also, most of my cash game play is live so I wouldn't have numbers for those hands anyway. But, from my own experience, I can say that 24/17 isn't bad... depending on your skill level post-flop. It is a tad loose but I am thinking of 9 handed play mostly. 6 handed play does require the willingness to get involved in more hands and the necessity of playing those hands stronger (thus the higher pfr). I don't think these stats are out of line with a reasonable playing style. I regularly play with a player who is probably close to 35~40/25. And he generally does very well because he is almost uncanny in his ability to know where he is at in a hand at all times and his absolute fearlessness when he believes he can move you off a better hand. He does much better live than online because he plays the people more than the cards most of the time.

I usually play 8-10 handed and 200BB+ deep. The general strategy there requires slighly tighter play because you have greater risk both in the depth of your stack and the number of players. Being up against 5 people is vastly different from facing 9 players. And 25NL is 100BB deep... at least most places I have seen it online. So your stack is not dramatically deep. It's still deep-stack play, don't get me wrong, but you're not risking quite as much if you get to a point where you need to make a decision for all your chips. And you're also much less likely to be facing a better hand. Even 9-handed though, I am probably at least 25/15 (on a tight table) if only because I open a lot when I have position or am likely to have position. I fold if there was action from an early player but that is compensated for when I get a strong hand in early position and open. On a loose-passive table, I am probably near 40/15 because I am limping more from late position after several other players with hands that could win a big pot against many people and opening earlier for a raise to get players out when I want to take the flop short-handed.

So what do I mean by tighter? Well, it depends. It depends on a lot of things. In general, the deeper you get and the more people in each hand... the tighter your positional starting requirements should become. It's costing you less of your stack for each hand and you're more and more likely to be up against a stronger hand. The less people in the hand and the shorter your stack gets... the wider your starting requirements become. 6 max is a great game because it is an action game. You can and should be looser because each hand is costing you more (0.25BB compared to 0.17BB for 9 handed) and the odds of your A-J being up against A-Q or A-K are dramatically less.

An example:
10 handed live game [250BB] A-10 UTG.... to be honest... I am usually throwing this hand away unless the table has become completely passive and a raise is very unlikely. Even then, I am not thrilled with this hand. I just can't see a lot of good coming from it and I am putting all my chips at risk for what it likely not even the 2nd best hand at the table right now and probably won't improve enough to make it a sure winner. Never forget, in NL when you enter a pot... your entire stack is at risk. If I limped with this hand and saw any action pre-flop... I am folding without a second thought.

6 handed game [100BB] A-10 UTG... easy and obvious opening hand. I am very likely to have the best hand at this moment... further, only three players need to fold to give me position for the rest of the hand (less than half as many as above). On the flop, I am less likely dominated and have less chips at risk if I am -- plus, if the blinds called... I also have position. I am still thinking of throwing this hand away pre-flop if there is a big raise but now it's not certain... especially if that raise comes from the blinds.

Anyway... after all tight, I still don't have a solid answer for what "tighter" means. It is very relative to the game and the table... and even the moment in time. But in a cash game, you are not under pressure to play a bad hand out of position because you're going to go bust otherwise. You need to decide if playing the hand is likely to be +EV or -EV. Most of my advice about being very tight does apply for full tables.

Most decisions in a cash game come on the flop and turn. The better you start, the easier those decisions become.