PTOTW #23 Week 34 - August 2008

[Wyte22]

Originally Posted by gamer4life27 You really don't get it Wyte, do you? After I was down to only 11 in chips with blinds at 10/20, you laughed at me, after saying 'Wow'. I understand my bluff didn't go as planned, but I honestly thought he had nothing. He checked on the flop, made a stupid call on the turn, and thats all there is to it. You didn't have to pour salt on the wound by laughing at me in the short stack! So I thank you from the bottom of my heart to know what kind of friend you are to me at the poker table.

Did I say "WOW GAMER IS ON SHORTZZZZZ OMG!"????? no, I wowed because of the hands. that was an impressive play! Seriously, quit jumping to conculsions over stupid shit bro. I have tons of respect for everyone on this site who plays, because all of them are excellant players, even you. Soo if you wanna rattle my cage over what you think I said wow about, go ahead but you will lose my respect. It was YOUR bad play that hand that put you in the 11 chip stack. I've played with Lake several times, he makes sick reads bro. Go plate your bad temper else where about being knocked out by your failed bluff.

[lakedweller]

Thanks all for the congratulations. In all fairness, the deck hit me in the face during this tournament.

However, I did think you were bluffing, gamer. If I was wrong, so be it. Part of the game.

Take care everyone and good luck at the tables.

[Wyte22]

Originally Posted by lakedweller Thanks all for the congratulations. In all fairness, the deck hit me in the face during this tournament. However, I did think you were bluffing, gamer. If I was wrong, so be it. Part of the game. Take care everyone and good luck at the tables.

you played awesome gj, now for beating you at multiple HU this month!! lol

[gorden71]

Although I didnt last long, it was fun. Congrats Lake, sounds like you guys had a good time. Hope to see you all in the next one.

[snipermcgees]

Originally Posted by frob23 I'm out in 4th. Oh well. Blue was raising too often and too much for the blinds and I took a stand with K-6s... he called with A-9o... which is a little shocking to me since it was for basically his whole stack. I hit my six on the flop, he turned a 9, and it was over.

There were quite a few reasons for calling your pre-flop shove after my preflop raise. You have listed some of the reasons, others had to do with stack size, and others with game dynamics. Sometimes my mouse moves easier to call than fold.
We can talk about it more if you want to post it.

Good game everyone!

[frob23]

Originally Posted by snipermcgees There were quite a few reasons for calling your pre-flop shove after my preflop raise. You have listed some of the reasons, others had to do with stack size, and others with game dynamics. Sometimes my mouse moves easier to call than fold. We can talk about it more if you want to post it. Good game everyone!

I do not see how stack size and game dynamics supported the call. But if you say so. As for the stack size argument, you had me covered by less than 2xBB. So I can't imagine how that was a positive for calling. The game dynamics thing I had already mentioned in that you were too aggressive pre-flop and kept committing around 13% (or more) of your stack to the pre-flop raises in at least 3 of the last 4 hands. And I'm not totally sure what your image of my play was at the time but I find it hard to believe that you thought A-9o was a good hand against a 3-bet shove from me. The hands I had shown down previously were all big pairs and I think an unimproved AKs.

The only thing I could think, regarding stack size, is that you thought you might be behind but were willing to take the risk to double up in the hopes of standing a chance against the bigger stacks -- even though doubling up still left you the shortest stack at the table. I mean, that is at least a semi-sane sort of play if you're worried about facing the bubble as a super-short stack.

UTG=t3,493
Hero=t793
SB=t1,929
BB=t740

Hero has A 9

SB posts t15, BB posts t30, UTG folds, Hero raises to t105, SB fold, BB raises all-in to t740, Hero calls t665.

So here's the hand... you've raised 13% of your stack from the button and had the BB move all-in. What range of hands do you put the BB on? What sort of equity do you expect from calling here? What previous hands play into this decision?

Edit: Pot odds are 860-665 here... about 1.3-1 you need at least 43.6% pot equity to make this a mathematically correct call but there might be strategic reasons to risk being crippled here. So if those are over-powering, you don't need to meet this.


Edit2: I do know the exact range I am making this play with here. But I'd love to know how close you can get.

[snipermcgees]

So it has a lot to do with paying out only 2 places, the fact that we are both shortstacks (with the blinds soon to increase), and that Wyte has position on me and has me covered.

I can give you a pretty solid 3-shoving preflop range plus some random bluff holdings, and my equity is about 42%, so pretty close to the pot odds.

The hands that matter are the hands when I raised your blind. It was odd, but when I was raising pre-flop it was >50% of the time your big blind. Some of these put me in tough spots and I folded early in the hand, so I thought you thought I was raising light, so you might shove with some weaker holdings.

Finally, I thought you might call with some percentage of your best hands (i.e. AA to trap me on a the flop).

I was scared to be honest, but ready to call your shove when I raised.
I thought it was a great hand, and you played it very well.

[frob23]

You're pretty close... I'd opened my 3-bet shoving range against your raises a lot. Mainly because I didn't expect you to be able to call with a lot of your holdings so I expected my fold equity was higher than usual.

The range I was shoving there was: 55+,A5s+,K6s+,A9o+,KTo+ which you have 43% equity against.

K6s is the bottom end of that but I'd already decided I was going with any suited K-nonwheel.

lol, I bet you thought I was going to make up a range that would have your play be bad. I don't think it was. I just wanted to see if you knew it was a decent play or not. I was shoving medium pairs, strong offsuit Aces and Kings, and marginal suited Aces and Kings. No Queens because I expected I might need the power of a high-card in show-down if called.

Against my normal range with those stacks and blinds, A9o would be a 34% equity hand in that spot. But with the amount of chips you were committing (which made a resteal tempting) and the frequency you were doing it, I had widened my range to a point where I thought it would be profitable -- when fold equity was computed into it.

Against a small raise, if it's sure to be heads up, I might call with AA or KK... and hope to extract some value by playing a small to medium sized pot on the flop. But against a big raise (10% of the effective stacks or more), I'm almost always shoving pre-flop here. If you go along for the ride, I'm happy. If not, the pot it large enough to make me feel like I got some value from the big pair... and without risking a bad beat. I'm not saying I never call in that spot but I'm much more likely to just put the chips in pre-flop while I'm certain the hand is good.

That said, I don't think you played poorly. I was just shocked you called that much of your stack in that spot. And then flopping good... and losing anyway... that sucked. But that's poker.