Make every pot you win bigger...

[KayJay333]

I use a few different strategies (in addition to the standard poker knowledge that most people know, like slowplaying/check raising) in online poker to try to make the pots that I have the best hand a lot bigger pots and was wondering if other people agree, if they use the same strategies, and if they have any other strategies. For example:

-If I have Ad2d and the flop comes out 5d 8h Jd and I check and the guy on the button raises the minimum I wait for 10 or 15 seconds then raise him the minimum back. I'd say about 90% of the time he will flat call my reraise. This way he thinks I either have top pair, or two pair or possibly trips. This puts me in a good position to see if I hit my flush because he will most likely check on the turn. In all, he is most likely putting me on a hand completely different than the one I actually have and might stab at the pot not thinking I have a flush.

-I will also use a similar strategy as the first one when I have an open ended straight. I will especially do this with a hand like JQ when the flop is 2 9 10 because if any 8 or K hits I have the nuts and if a J or Q hits I feel comfortable betting.

-Another strategy I use is the immediate check when I have the nuts and are in late position. For example I'm in a tourney and I'm one on one with someone holding QQ and the flop is something like 2 6 J and I'm in the later position than my opponent. The pot is 1000, he checks, I bet 500 he calls. The turn is a Q giving me trips with a rainbow board. before he has even made a move yet I put a check mark in the "check" box knowing that I'm going to win this hand 99% of the time. I find that the quick check usually provokes my opponent to make a big stab at the pot, then I reraise and he typically calls.

Do you guys agree with my strategies/moves or use the same ones in your games? Do you have any other moves or ways of making the times that you have the nuts a bigger payoff?

[CubsDominate]

I typically stick to more straightforward methods. I find that there are enough fishes online that I don't have to do any tricky moves. I simply play tight until I get a good hand and bet aggressively. As long as I make it not worthwhile for a fish to chase a straight or a flush and make sure I'm folding when I know I'm beat then I will get paid off in the long run.

[phosphorescence]

they were helpful, i might try some of them sometime

another one i've seen work really well is in a tournament, if someone has a monster in late position, say KK, they just min raise and probably get a call from BB and maybe SB.
then say the board comes J high, if the caller has a jack they just bet the bejesus out of it. people just cannot lay down top pair in tournaments most of the time, even if the original raiser raises his bet.
i've seen so many people get knocked out of tourneys this way.

[KayJay333]

I've seen that work well but I've also seen that really backfire with the minimum raise. In my opinion, if I'm in the small blind and I know that the dealer position has AA or KK I will pretty much call with whatever. Even if you know you have a small chance, you have to the think of the future. If I have 79 in the BB and the dealer position is holding KK and the flop comes out 7 9 J I'm most likely going to get paid off big with my two pair. And if you miss the flop you just fold..

I'm definitely not a fan of the minimum raise UNLESS it's very late in a tournament where the blinds are more than about 1/20 of your stack, then i think it's a good move.

[KayJay333]

Do you guys have any different strategies like this between live poker and online poker. Obviously you can give away a lot more information with your body language in live poker. Does anyone try to give away the wrong information?

For me it depends on who I'm playing against. If I'm playing against idiots then I will attempt to give away signs saying that I have a weak hand when I have a strong one, simply because most begginners are gullable. But when I'm playing against better players I just don't try to give away any information at all.

[wilsonmja]

I don't like the idea of going out of my way to get my money in on a draw. This will get you a nice pot once in awhile, but what about all the ones you lose. Despite what some donkeys think, OESD and flush draws miss most of the time. You should only be drawing when odds warrent it.

[wilsonmja]

Originally Posted by KayJay333 If I'm playing against idiots then I will attempt to give away signs saying that I have a weak hand when I have a strong one, simply because most begginners are gullable.

According to what I've been told this is unethical and you will burn in poker hell for eternity if you engage in this dihonest activity.

[frob23]

Originally Posted by wilsonmja I don't like the idea of going out of my way to get my money in on a draw. This will get you a nice pot once in awhile, but what about all the ones you lose. Despite what some donkeys think, OESD and flush draws miss most of the time. You should only be drawing when odds warrent it.

In pots that have several players in them, which is common at weak tables, you can raise these draws for value at the fixed limit tables. While you will miss most of the time, having several other people in the hand with you means that you have a positive expectation on this bet most of the time... barring some obvious exceptions where you are drawing to the low end of a straight, drawing to a straight with 2 suited cards on the flop, paired boards, and the one danger you can't see... drawing against a set. I would say, in limit, that I bet these draws fairly consistently (barring paired boards or the ignorant end of the straight) and show a strong return because of it. Your draws do have equity.

In NL, it is much less common to bet these draws as a manner of pot control... and not because you can't profitably bet them for value. Outside of fixed limit games, I rarely (if ever) will minraise. But I will make a standard size bet with these draws at really loose passive tables. I do not want there to be much chance of a raise here (because I will need to lay it down) so my table read is important... but this bet can be profitable. The problem with betting these draws is your turn play. In position, this is less of a problem, but out of position you might miss and face a large bet that you can't call. if you checked the flop, a turn bet would be much smaller. You would have greater implied odds based on the size of the remaining stacks.

Edit: In the example given in the original post... the player is out of position... which makes the play that much riskier. They are also heads up, which removes some of the return on the bet... but if it does work as a deception, the implied odds may make up for it. It depends on the read they have on the other player and the stack sizes. Still, I think a normal sized raise... if anything... is better than minraising.

Basically, you don't want to find yourself drawing to a large pot in NL because missing can make it too expensive to continue. Since the original post advocates min-raising here... and playing it like a Limit hand... it may seem like a decent idea but I still don't like it. You could have an aggressive player reraise large, chase out all the value, and be forced to face a large bet that gives you the wrong odds without ever seeing a card. And, smart players will quickly pick up on the fact that these massively under-sized bets represent draws and they will come over the top in exactly this manner... regardless of the real value of their hands.

[KayJay333]

Frob, although I see exactly where you are coming from, In my own experience every time I ever make this mini raise, whether it be out of position or in good position, I get a check from the opposing player probably 95% of the time on the turn. The only reason that I use this strategy is because I hate chasing draws. Simply calling a small bet when I have a flush draw or open ended straight is really obvious to me and goes against my tight aggressive play. It's very easy for me to put an opponent on a hand when they flat call up until a 3rd card of the same suit comes out and they bet heavily. From my experience whenever I would call and then hit the straight I would never get paid off because my oppenent always knew my hand and folded. Even though some might think it's a high risk play, if I'm in the hand I always like to be in control. Even if I don't hit my flush I still think I have a decent chance to blulff my opponent out of the hand.

Some people might disagree but I don't think this move has ever backfired on me. I think the payoff much outweighs the small loss if you have to fold the hand after a miniraise.

[KayJay333]

Originally Posted by wilsonmja I don't like the idea of going out of my way to get my money in on a draw. This will get you a nice pot once in awhile, but what about all the ones you lose. Despite what some donkeys think, OESD and flush draws miss most of the time. You should only be drawing when odds warrent it.

wilsonmja, I obviously know that open ended straight draws don't hit MOST of the time, but they hit about 35% of the time, AND in my situation I said I did this when I have the two over cards, so if I had KQ and the flop was J 10 2 I stil have more outs if I hit any K or any Q. and I will rarely play any suited hand unless it's Ax suited or if they are suited connectors and I am on the dealer position. So if I have AJ suited and the flop comes out 2 7 10 with two of my suits I have about a 38% of hitting my flush, not to mention I'm typically going to be up top pair with something like K10, so if I pair either one of my cards I'm going to win also. This bumps up my chances to about 54% of winning the hand.

Therefore, you are trying to tell me that this is a stupid move? I'm a donkey for putting myself in control of the hand and disguising my real hand value to my opponent, when in all actuality when I hit my hand I will be paid off much more as a result of disguising my hand.

Also, my table image is typically very tight and most people know I frequently fold to a large raise. I usually get bet into hard on the river because my opponent usually thinks that I can be pushed out of the hand.

sorry for the long response, anyone can disagree with me, but this always made perfect sense to me. I will gladly "chase" cards in my own way if I know that the payout will be much larger in the long run

[liladypokerpro]

The way I view it is simple...in the great game of Poker, there are many different players with many different styles. So who is one player to tell another player that their style is wrong?

KayJay, if it works for you, then I say stick to what works. Like my father always said, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" Now, if it ever STOPS working, THEN you might want to alter your strategy a little, but otherwise, go with it if it works as frequently as you say.

[frob23]

Originally Posted by KayJay333 Simply calling a small bet when I have a flush draw or open ended straight is really obvious to me and goes against my tight aggressive play. [. . .] Even if I don't hit my flush I still think I have a decent chance to blulff my opponent out of the hand.

I hate to respectfully disagree but a minraise is not aggressive play. One of the benefits of aggressive play is that you are applying pressure on the opponent and a minraise doesn't do that. In this case, you are talking about a minraise of a minbet which would offer at least 5-1 odds to your opponent (that's in an blind verse blind unraised pre-flop pot and it's higher in every other case). Assuming he wasn't on a complete steal with something stupid like two cards lower than the board, this is an easy call. Even in limit poker, where you are stuck with the minraise, you are looking to make it two bets cold if you want fold equity and you're making it one bet more if you want them in.

I am getting off track. What you are attempting to do here is to semi-bluff. Except that you are removing one of the ways a semi-bluff can benefit you. A semi-bluff offers you three ways to win:

1) your opponent can fold immediately
2) a scare card can come which you can bet and get your opponent to fold
3) you can make the best hand

You have essentially denied yourself option #1. In NL play, where the implied odds can be huge, a minraise just doesn't apply any pressure or incentive to get off any reasonable hand. As you have stated, you still have options #2 and #3 available to you... but you're giving up one way a semi-bluff can work.

Imagine you're playing $0.50/$1 NL with $100 stacks. You're in the BB and the button makes it $3 to go pre-flop. The SB folds and you call. The pot's $6.50 and the flop comes J-6-7 with two clubs. You are holding 9-10c which was a little frisky pre-flop but not terrible. You check and your opponent bets $3.50. Yeah, it's not a minbet but I am trying to keep this probable here. If you make it $7 to go... your opponent is being offered $17-$3.50 to make the call. Which is almost 5-1 and they can make a call with a lot of hands. In this spot... any non-club Ace, King, or Queen will offer them odds to resteal on the turn or maybe they can think of other cards... either way, if they think one of those 9 cards are enough to get you off the hand... they are being offered nearly perfect odds to try and hit one. If they were continuation betting with AK or AQ you still haven't given them a reason to get off the hand and if they have more than that... it's an even worse mistake for them to fold. You've basically given up the chance of winning the pot right now. Although you can still win on a scary turn or by making the best hand.

Now... same play up to you... but you make it $14 to go. Now they will need to call $10.50 for a $24 pot. That's only about 2.3-1 pot odds... and you could easily have been playing 66, 77, 67s or something else in the BB. You've applied a ton of pressure to them and you'll probably get a fold. Even if you don't get a fold... a 9 or 10 on the turn offers you the chance to steal the pot by representing the straight or two pair (if you held J-10s or J-9s) so you could win it on another street. And an 8 or a club will make you the best hand and you'll win that way. You've left yourself all three ways to win this hand.

If you're going to be aggressive, be aggressive.

[Fictive]

If you don't mind me asking, what levels you play at in cash games, kayjay? I'm only asking because the first two are semi-bluffs and the last one is a slowplay, and playing them like that, to me at least, screams either the nuts or a draw. The first two I don't see how you have any implied odds there, because anyone with a half a brain will smell your flush draw miles away, and you won't get anymore out of them. But hey, if they work for you, that's great. Everyone has their own style, and what works for some won't work for others.

Personally, I like a lot more straight forward play, and I rarely bet/raise the minimum I just hate that, but again, it's just me. I play NL100 and NL200 and like in lower levels, it seems that straight forward play gets you the cash. If anything, players tend to be more inclined to fold if you get too creative.

[wilsonmja]

Originally Posted by frob23 I hate to respectfully disagree but a minraise is not aggressive play. One of the benefits of aggressive play is that you are applying pressure on the opponent and a minraise doesn't do that. In this case, you are talking about a minraise of a minbet which would offer at least 5-1 odds to your opponent (that's in an blind verse blind unraised pre-flop pot and it's higher in every other case). Assuming he wasn't on a complete steal with something stupid like two cards lower than the board, this is an easy call. Even in limit poker, where you are stuck with the minraise, you are looking to make it two bets cold if you want fold equity and you're making it one bet more if you want them in. I am getting off track. What you are attempting to do here is to semi-bluff. Except that you are removing one of the ways a semi-bluff can benefit you. A semi-bluff offers you three ways to win: 1) your opponent can fold immediately 2) a scare card can come which you can bet and get your opponent to fold 3) you can make the best hand You have essentially denied yourself option #1. In NL play, where the implied odds can be huge, a minraise just doesn't apply any pressure or incentive to get off any reasonable hand. As you have stated, you still have options #2 and #3 available to you... but you're giving up one way a semi-bluff can work. Imagine you're playing $0.50/$1 NL with $100 stacks. You're in the BB and the button makes it $3 to go pre-flop. The SB folds and you call. The pot's $6.50 and the flop comes J-6-7 with two clubs. You are holding 9-10c which was a little frisky pre-flop but not terrible. You check and your opponent bets $3.50. Yeah, it's not a minbet but I am trying to keep this probable here. If you make it $7 to go... your opponent is being offered $17-$3.50 to make the call. Which is almost 5-1 and they can make a call with a lot of hands. In this spot... any non-club Ace, King, or Queen will offer them odds to resteal on the turn or maybe they can think of other cards... either way, if they think one of those 9 cards are enough to get you off the hand... they are being offered nearly perfect odds to try and hit one. If they were continuation betting with AK or AQ you still haven't given them a reason to get off the hand and if they have more than that... it's an even worse mistake for them to fold. You've basically given up the chance of winning the pot right now. Although you can still win on a scary turn or by making the best hand. Now... same play up to you... but you make it $14 to go. Now they will need to call $10.50 for a $24 pot. That's only about 2.3-1 pot odds... and you could easily have been playing 66, 77, 67s or something else in the BB. You've applied a ton of pressure to them and you'll probably get a fold. Even if you don't get a fold... a 9 or 10 on the turn offers you the chance to steal the pot by representing the straight or two pair (if you held J-10s or J-9s) so you could win it on another street. And an 8 or a club will make you the best hand and you'll win that way. You've left yourself all three ways to win this hand. If you're going to be aggressive, be aggressive.

I could not have put it better. Right on the money sir/maam.

[KayJay333]

I typically play .25/.50 or .5/1.00 blinds. I don't think that you guys are reading my post right at all, I stated that I OCCAISIONALLY use some different strategies to mix it up and get away form my typical straightforward tight aggressive play.

I was simply explaining some moves that I sometimes use and was asking if anyone else had any other strategies to make a big hand a bigger pot? Everyone has simply been knocking my play but haven't shared any of their moves that they might use. So then, tell me how I should be playing?

[frob23]

Originally Posted by KayJay333 I typically play .25/.50 or .5/1.00 blinds. I don't think that you guys are reading my post right at all, I stated that I OCCAISIONALLY use some different strategies to mix it up and get away form my typical straightforward tight aggressive play. I was simply explaining some moves that I sometimes use and was asking if anyone else had any other strategies to make a big hand a bigger pot? Everyone has simply been knocking my play but haven't shared any of their moves that they might use. So then, tell me how I should be playing?

I have shared a move I would make... in the second way to play the 9-10c in the spot I described. If you want to know how this makes a bigger pot... look at the basics:

Minraise: Pot on turn: $20.50 ... remaining stacks: $90
Proper Raise: Pot on turn: $34.50... remaining stacks: $83

You should note that in the second method, any betting at all on the turn pot commits the players. You are going to have this player stacking off with this hand if he has anything reasonable. In the minraise method, you're just not going to get that pot commitment unless the turn card is safe, he has a monster, and you overbet the pot. This scenario is even worse if there was no raise pre-flop and it is the bare minimum bet/raise on the flop. At $0.50/$1.00, you are looking at a $6 pot with $97 stacks behind. You're just not going to make anything on this hand with a pot that small and stacks that deep in comparison. Consider the big bet leaves you with 2.4xPOT on the turn, the normal bet minraise leaves you with 4.4xPOT on the turn, and the pure minbet leaves you with 16.2xPOT on the turn. In which case are you likely to get the most of the other player's chips?

Also, a call of a minbet doesn't mean the other player has much of anything. So if a third of a suit falls, you're not getting paid anyway because he might not even have enough to call you down if he thought you didn't have the flush. With a proper raise, you might pick up the pot right there (which is a profitable result) but, if you get called, you know you are looking at a hand strong enough that they might go broke with it if the right card comes. You're picking up the small pots without much risk when they have nothing... and taking the lead in the big pots when they might have something they're willing to peel a card with... which is something they might go broke with if they mistake your hand and you happen to catch good.

Edit: The simple fact that you're able to get such low pot to stack ratios on the turn so easily is one reason I like 200BB+ games. If everyone is playing 250BB deep, you've still got deep stacks on the turn and the river play gets a little more interesting. Not that 100BB is short stacked... but I find a reasonable amount of aggression can result in difficult decisions later. This is one reason I am so interested in SPR and started a thread on it. Since the size of the pot on the flop compared to your stacks can determine (fairly often) how committed you will become.

[frob23]

Online Poker at Full Tilt Poker - Poker Tips: Tips From the Pros: 5th June 2008

Here's a nice post by a pro from Full Tilt on the topic of the check, min-raise.


The Dreaded Min-Check-Raise

There are a lot of potentially horrendous moves to be made in No-Limit Hold ‘em: playing out of position with a marginal hand, chasing down a draw without the correct odds, overplaying (or underplaying) the nuts. All of these are horrible, horrible plays. But in my opinion, the worst play that you can make (and I see made far too often) is the min-check-raise. I’ve never seen this play used correctly. In fact, I don’t think it’s even possible to use it correctly.

[nodelay69]

I like to trap them into a hand and take them out . I slow play all my big hands and fold weak ones ,so I guess I play tight i guess . I like how some people think if they have ace rag think all in is the way to go ..lol I love those fish..