Preflop!

[MikeyInc]

So we see it all the time, this caught my attention most watching Chuck Ts' analysis of ice monkey's session today. He talked a lot about "taking the initiative" in the hand and we see it all the time from various poker authorities about taking the lead in a hand, Harrington even uses that as one of the criteria to change what you should do in a heads-up ring game hand.

Now of course against average and below-average players they will play in a very predictable manner because they think that's how it's supposed to be. The preflop raise should/will raise. This leads to a lot of monsters checking when OOP to the preflop raiser and a lot of people cbetting practically any flop.

My question however, is why this matters against good opponents. Now the one time it would matter is say there's a preflop raise from EP. You can now expect that player to have a good hand. But when you watch shows such as HSP, you'll realize that at that skill level mixing it up is so imperative that even an UTG raise may not mean extreme strength.

So why is who raised preflop important? Why does it matter whether the CO raises and button calls or the button raises, everyone folds around to the CO and then he calls? If we assume a wide range of hands from both players in both scenarios, why does it matter who raised preflop? What value does "taking the initiative" or being "the preflop aggressor" have? If we erase all our artificial expectations and approach this from an objective and analytical stance, I don't see any reason that the person who raised would matter. Am I missing something? They still act in the same order, the same amount of money's in the pot preflop, etc. Everything is the same in the future. So as I mentioned, other than slight changes in hand ranges, what is the big deal about being the preflop aggressor? I'll exploit the actions people use with that assumption where I play now. I've started check-raising a ton with ATC (that I called preflop with) when an aggressive player with a high cbet % throws out a cbet after they raised preflop. I've started checking behind flops for pot control because I know that a lot of even sets would check in that position. But in a tough game where there are no artificial ideas of how someone SHOULD play or act, what's the difference?

[irishpkr]

Isnt it obvious why you need a stronger hand to open UTG than in the CO?
You're almost always gonna be out of position, you have far more people left to act after you, which in turn means the likelihood you have the best hand decreases. If you're on the button, its far more likely that a certain hand is 'ahead'.

As for why you want the initiative: theres a saying I guess might be relevant here, offence is the best form of defence. In poker we make money when we make our opponents err. By aggressing its tough for opponents to play best - as an example, how much do you like it when you keep getting bet into when you miss the flop? Sure you can c/r or whatever, but this is 'stressful' and you're gonna have to rely on reading your opponent really well postflop etc.

Its a nice concept that there are no 'artificial ideas', but we can't through what we know, and what we know opponents know, out the window.

[MikeyInc]

very interesting ... anyone else .. i think this is going to be a topic to discuss for Weeks!! i see many different outcomes..

[openender]

i dont follow ur argument.

utg mathematically more likely that better hands are out there waiting to act.
OTB much less likely, hands have acted, shown stregnth or weakness already.

if utg calls and u call in middle position, and the button raises, utg check raises, what ya gonna do?
utg raises, u call from middle, button raises, utg calls, what ya gonna do?
You raise utg on this assumption, you get reraised? do you reraise, call and bet out, call and check raise the flop? what flop do u want to see here to play this hand oop?

The money in the pot is always the same, the number of players is the same, the only advantage is position and taking the initiative gets u position. If u do ur standard check raise Id come over the top the 2nd time, (coz id make sure I had a hand the second time) and learn what u do. If u fold then u just putting extra money into the pot for me, great, ill just keep 3 betting you. If you call you see a hand and get beat, gonna check raise next time? What if I just move All in post flop, take ur move away from u, do u still call preflop with junk just to check raise?

Its just that evryone knows that the button is the stealing position, wth the cut off the new button, so now peeps seem to think that utg is the new button, but its a lot more dangerous.

On a side note i usually 95%+ times raise an utg min raise, or anywhere for that matter. Its amazing how many peeps think that means AA so use it for suited connectors or KQ. but they dont like to play for a raise, knowing they have to act on the flop FIRST, and if they hit or not, theres a rasie coming. And yes I have gone down in flames a couple of times, but its the principle.

Aah, feel better now....and relax