Challenge: 09.11 -- $10NL Out Of Position Against Pre-Flop Raiser

[frob23]

The following hand, you will be playing from the CO. The Button is a solid and aggressive player who has been involved in several hands recently. He usually enters for a raise but has limped from late position occassionally. From experience you know he has a decently tight pre-flop raising range and has shown down strong pre-flop hands when he has made it to showdown after raising pre-flop.

MP1 in this hand is very loose and passive. They call frequently and have shown down some crazy draws that they have hit on the turn or river in previous hands.

This will be done as a quiz. Put your answer in the response for each question. You should also post your logic and reasoning. Then, continue on to the next part of the hand. The "Hero" in this hand may make a different choice from your decision and that does not mean it is the correct choice. At each stage, try and pick the best possible choice in your mind. In one week, I will post my thoughts on each stage of the hand.

Obviously you could try and cheat and look ahead but there's no answers given here. So it won't help much.

0: MP2: $1.05
1: MP3: $3.66
2: Hero: $19.06
3: Button: $6.48
4: SB: $20.25
5: BB: $8.00
6: UTG: $16.95
7: UTG+1: $9.31
8: MP1: $9.06

Hero: 8 Q

SB posts $0.05, BB posts $0.10, 2 folds, MP1 calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero ____.

1) What do you do here:
a) fold
b) call $0.10
c) raise to $0.30
d) raise to $0.60

You actually call $0.10. Button raises to $0.40, SB folds, BB calls $0.30, MP1 calls $0.30, Hero ___.

2) Well, you limped and the solid player on your left raised to 4xBB. You:
a) fold
b) call $0.30
c) raise to $1.00

You actually call again.

FLOP: 9 2 8 (Pot: $1.65)

You have flopped middle pair, on a medium suited board, out of position in relation to the pre-flop raiser.

BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero ___.

3) Your action:
a) check
b) bet $0.90
c) bet $1.25
d) bet $1.65

You decide to check, Button bets $1.65, 1 fold, MP1 calls $1.65, Hero ___.

4)
a) fold
b) call $1.65
c) raise $3.50
d) raise all-in

You actually call $1.65.

TURN: 9 2 8 K (Pot: $6.60)

MP1 checks, Hero___.

5)
a) check
b) bet $1.95
c) bet $6.60
d) move all-in

You actually bet $1.95, Button moves all-in for $4.43, MP1 calls $4.43, Hero___.

6)
a) fold
b) call $2.48
c) raise and put MP1 all-in

You actually call $2.48.

TURN: 9 2 8 K J:diamonds: (Pot: $19.89)

MP1 checks, Hero___.

7)
a) check
b) bet $1.00
c) bet and put MP1 all-in

You actually bet $3.20 (enough to put MP1 all-in) and MP1 folds.

8)
(Short Response) Predict the outcome:

Alright, this hand was ugly as they come. But give some thought to everything and how you would have played it. I obviously don't agree with how "Hero" played this hand but I think it is a common spot a lot of beginning players get themselves in.

Note: As a note, neither of these players was myself. I just thought it would be a fun hand to start with. If you have never played like this guy, you've certainly played against him.

[irishpkr]

1. Fold!
2. Fold!
3. Check
4. Fold

From here on, I just dont have a clue, really if you've played this bad to get this far, wow. I guess I'm putting nothing more in the pot 3way, but if you bet the turn, its to bet/call, not to bet/fold.

[frob23]

lol, I am not saying you should ever be at this point in the hand or that there's supposed to be a real "good" decision after a certain point. But pick something and go with it.

Come on people... give this a shot, it's not that hard. You can't leave irishpkr to try all by himself.

[snipermcgees]

1. fold. this is not a strong hand, however raising to $0.30 isolate the MP1 is an option if he is a target.

2. call. you're calling $0.30 to win $1.35, which is like 4.5:1 and I'm a loose monkey so I call. With the read on the button, and two other opponents, you are going to have to hit the flop hard to continue.

3. check. you've flopped middle pair with a mediocre kicker, while you might have the best hand assuming the button has two overcards and not an overpair, it will be difficult to know where you stand if you are called or raised.

4. fold. the button has shown strength pre-flop and now on the flop. it's time to let go of the hand, despite the fact that the fish is still playing. even a queen isn't a great card with and 8 and a 9 on board and hearts.

5. check. this card crushes your hand against the button's range assuming you had a better hand on the flop. the plan would be to fold to any bet.

6. fold. there is a small chance the button is pushing a strong flush draw, but with the fish calling your hand is not strong enough 3 ways to make a call profitable. the bet is a bluff, I think, and it didn't work, so fold I think (the pot is pretty big at this point though, I'm too tired to figure out how big, but I still fold a lot here).

7. check behind. you're only playing against the MP fish for a side pot and he's not calling often enough with hands that you beat.

8. you lose 99% of the time, with 1% of the time the button showing up with some flush draw like AhQh or some other weirdly played pocket pair.

[snipermcgees]

so what do you think frob?
do you make these hands up?
or where do you get them?

[frob23]

I was going to post my "answers" later tonight. I don't make these hands up. These are actual hands that I have seen played at tables I sit at.

I think I was the SB for this hand when it actually played out. When the hand was done, I had pretty much nailed the Button's range down to QQ-AA and AK. Only because those are the only hands I don't see him slowing down for on this board and that he might play this way.

I couldn't really place the Hero on a firm hand but liked K-x of hearts after he called the flop and bet the turn like that. Of course, as everyone can see... I was wrong about that.

I'll post the rest of my thoughts after 9pm EDT tonight.

[frob23]

Originally Posted by frob23 Hero: 8 Q SB posts $0.05, BB posts $0.10, 2 folds, MP1 calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero ____. 1) What do you do here: a) fold (2 pts) b) call $0.10 c) raise to $0.30 d) raise to $0.60

This hand is too weak to try and play here. You have almost no fold-equity against the limper because we know he's a calling station. You don't want to play a this sort of hand here. This is an easy decision. If you're playing hands like this from the CO, you're probably losing money on them or are the first person in the pot and the blinds are very tight.

You actually call $0.10. Button raises to $0.40, SB folds, BB calls $0.30, MP1 calls $0.30, Hero ___. 2) Well, you limped and the solid player on your left raised to 4xBB. You: a) fold (3 pts) b) call $0.30 c) raise to $1.00

Calling the first time was probably the worst option you had. And now you're facing a raise from a player who raises strong hands pre-flop and got two callers. You're being offered $1.35-$0.30 on this call 4.5-1 but it's just not good enough. For the love of all that is holy, just fold and let it go.

You actually call again. FLOP: 9 2 8 (Pot: $1.65) BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero ___. 3) Your action: a) check b) bet $0.90 (2 pts) c) bet $1.25 (4 pts) d) bet $1.65

You called pre-flop and maybe you had a play in mind. This is a raggedy looking flop and it's been checked to you. If you intended to make a play, this is the time to do it. You called pre-flop for something and you managed to hit the flop. If the Button was raising with AQs or AK or some other unpaired high cards then this flop missed him and he might fold. I prefer leading out with $1.25 here. This is a big enough bet to pick up the pot if everyone missed. As an alternative, you can try betting $0.90 but that's a little small with two hearts on the flop and with 4 people seeing the flop someone might have a straight draw as well. If you get raised here, I would have to let it go. But this is the time to take a shot.

You decide to check, Button bets $1.65, 1 fold, MP1 calls $1.65, Hero ___. 4) a) fold (3 pts) b) call $1.65 c) raise $3.50 d) raise all-in

Alright, let's stop playing around. You shouldn't have even seen this flop. You've checked around and the pre-flop raiser has made a pot sized bet and gotten a caller. You aren't drawing to anything and there's a lot of interest in this pot. There is no reason you should stick around here. Even if you currently have the best hand, you're not going to know it often enough and this pot is likely to get very large. Cut your losses.

You actually call $1.65. TURN: 9 2 8 K (Pot: $6.60) MP1 checks, Hero___. 5) a) check (2 pts) b) bet $1.95 c) bet $6.60 d) move all-in

Don't bet here. This is a horrible card for you. You should be check/folding this turn -- assuming you made it this far. There's now two flush draws, an over-card to your kicker (that falls solidly into the range of the Button) and you're out of position against him. Sure, we know that MP1 is probably on a draw and that card missed all the possible draws they could have had but it's still a bad card for us. On top of that, the Button has less than a pot-sized bet here and is likely to move in with anything and we're going to have a hard time folding to his raise even if we know we're behind.

You actually bet $1.95, Button moves all-in for $4.43, MP1 calls $4.43, Hero___. 6) a) fold (2 pts) b) call $2.48 c) raise and put MP1 all-in (4 pts)

Like a complete donk, you bet when you're only getting yourself into trouble. The only silver lining on this hand is that MP1 called. Since we're reasonably certain they are drawing... and they call too often on the draw... this is the time to charge them. Raise and put them all-in. Give yourself a chance to pick up a side pot. It won't make up for all your losses on this hand but it will at least help reduce them.

You actually call $2.48. TURN: 9 2 8 K J (Pot: $19.89) MP1 checks, Hero___. 7) a) check (1 pt) b) bet $1.00 c) bet and put MP1 all-in

What are you doing here? If he was on a straight draw then the J probably hit him. If it was a flush draw, he missed but he's not going to call a bet anyway. Since you're only getting called by hands that beat you, and you've been given a chance to see a cheap show-down... just show it down. There might be some fold-equity if MP1 has a Jack here and thinks you have a King and might fold but we know they call down too often so it won't be enough to make a bet worth it.

You actually bet $3.20 (enough to put MP1 all-in) and MP1 folds. 8) (Short Response) Predict the outcome: [0-5 pts based on your assessment of what you put the Button on]

I would have never played this hand this way. I suspect MP1 was on a flush draw. If he was on the straight draw the Jack on the end would have paired him or made the straight (unless he had the ignorant end of it). But we don't know for sure. I already said I put the Button on QQ-AA or AK. Everything in this range beats our hand so I expect to lose.

Sure enough, we do lose this hand. The Button turns over KK (for a flopped over-pair and a turned set)... so we were never getting them off this hand. I do think we could have saved all the money by folding pre-flop or at least lost the minimum if we bet the flop and got raised and could let it go (which is why I like $1.25 more than $0.90 because we're pretty sure we're beat if raised there). Instead, we got involved without a plan and managed to let the Button triple through us and MP1.

Out and out, this was a terrible hand. I don't mind the play of the Button. I actually think he played reasonably well. I might have raised a little more pre-flop but only because I know MP1 was calling as much as $0.60-$0.70 pre-flop with almost all of his hands and I would want to get as much money in as soon as possible.


Scoring:
0-4 pts: You can't get this unless you called pre-flop... don't do that
5-10 pts: Not bad... you're thinking through some parts of the hand
11-19 pts: Very good... you made some good decisions
20-24 pts: Excellent... you probably play a bunch of micro stakes and are also smart enough to not get yourself in situations this hand displayed... but once you got there, you'd be able to make the best choices you could.



Note: This is all my opinion... and you're welcome to argue and debate for another play or a different score... but those are my thoughts on the hand.