Challenge 9.20: $10NL, playing Aces

[frob23]

You are at a 9 handed $10NL table filled with typical players for this level. You have been running well and have picked up several pots recently without much resistance on the flop and turn.

Like before, respond with the answers you think are best and give reasons for your responses. Several of these are short answer and require you to think about the hand at each point. As always, you will follow along with the player in the hand but are not expected to believe that the Hero played a certain part of the hand well. Think about how you would have played it and respond based on that... not what the Hero might have done.

Reading ahead will not necessarily help you answer questions but I'd recommend against it. I would open this original post in another window or type your responses in a text editor and paste them as a response after... so you can see the hand while you think about your responses.

0: CO: $9.89
1: Button: $9.85
2: SB: $5.473: BB: $5.14
4: UTG: $10.12
5: UTG+1: $1.84
6: MP1: $2.14
7: MP2: $8.49
8: Hero: $23.56

Dealt: A A

SB posts $0.05, BB posts $0.10, 3 folds, MP2 calls $0.10

1) What do you do?
a) call $0.10
b) raise to $0.30
c) raise to $0.50
d) raise to $1.10
e) move all-in

You actually raise to $1.10, CO calls $1.10, 1 fold, SB calls $1.05, 2 folds.

2) What type of hands do you expect to be up against here?

3) Based on the above answer, what is a good flop for your hand and what would be a bad flop for your hand?

FLOP: K 2 8 (Pot $3.50)

4) How does this flop compare to your above range of hands?

5) What are the effective stacks for all the players in the hand and are you committed against those ranges -- based on those stacks, the above ranges, and this flop?

6) If you are committed, is there any action that would make you change your mind from either of the players?

SB checks

7) What do you do?
a) check
b) bet $1.00
c) bet $2.25
d) bet $3.50
e) move all-in

You bet $3.50, 1 fold, SB calls $3.50

8) What sort of hand do you expect the SB to have here and are you still committed?

TURN: K 2 8 9 (Pot $10.50)

9) Is this a good card or a bad card for your hand?

SB checks

10) What do you do?
a) check
b) bet $0.30.
c) put the SB all-in

You bet $2.63, and the SB calls all-in for $0.87

11) Are you happy with this call and do you expect to win this hand now that he has called?

[dew12109]

I believe I would have checked at some point here. Betting into him the whole time offers little insight into his hand. He called a big raise pre-flop, I would have probably raised less. Also, if he is a call station, I might expect to win this hand, but if he has been playing aggressive, I fully expect to lose to KK or 88. Being dealt AA is not invincible, and the way the hand has been played, I am treating it like it is. About the only hand he would call with that I could beat at this point would be AK, and since I hold AA, this hand becomes more unlikely. If I had portrayed an aggressive table image, I also fully expect to lose this hand, as the caller has allowed me to bet into him the entire way. If I have been playing really tightly, I still expect to lose this hand, as the caller probably figures I have a big hand and his set is going to beat me. If this player has been overly loose, I can see K 2 or K 8 being played by him, which again makes this a losing hand. It's so difficult to get information after just betting into him the whole way. The only way I feel like I'm winning this hand is if the caller is simply an idiot and will call anything with any pp, even with overcards and no set. The way this hand was played I'm totally not convinced I've won, in fact, I'd say I have about a 95% chance to lose here.

I was recently in an sng tournament, and this tight player raised 3x the bb, and there were 4 callers... I figured he had a big hand, and I had 89 suited, so I called once (blinds were cheap) to see if I could flop something to double up. I spiked an 8 and a flush draw. The guy who raised pre-flop bet again, and everyone else folded. I thought about it, was even more convinced he had AA or KK at this point, so I called thinking I had several outs and he wasn't going to lay down his hand. I hit a 9 on the turn. I checked, allowed the guy to bet into me at which time he goes in with half his stack. I was completely convinced now that he has AA or KK and it's 10, 9, 8, and 2 on the board. I go ahead and move all in. He thinks about it for as long as he possibly can without timing out, and then calls and shows AA. No A on the river and I took down the pot. Sometimes you should lay down AA, and I gave this guy the info he needed to realize his AA was no longer good, but I didn't think he would lay down KK or AA in the situation, so I figured I could double up through him.

In your above situation, there is a small chance that the caller is hoping for a card... or just has a K and figures he is good or at least has the odds to call so little more for the large pot. I just really don't like how the given example hand was played out. Even with AA, I think there HAS to be a check at some point to see what kind of bet the caller is going to do and then gauge based on how he has been betting and everything else where you are. But as I said, I expect to lose this hand a majority of the time, but this is based on my playing style/the image I usually portray at the table.

On a side note, I generally find these questions difficult to answer, because many of my decisions are not based solely on the cards, but how others have been playing as well. These questions offer to explanation at how people have been betting/calling/raising etc... but this is my best analysis of the situation given the information that has been stated.

[irishpkr]

1) Raise to 50c, obviously
2) Mostly paired, dunno if the smallest ones are in the range, but I guess you're probably pretty terrible to call off 10-20% of your stack, so I'll say maybe, 66+, AJ+, KQ
3) Hard to say what would be a bad board for AA here, with so little behind, but this is a good type of board for sure (might give someone a TP hand with AK/KQ, most PP missed)
4) ^^
5) With barely over 2PSB left, I sure as hell am committed with rockets
6) Nope
7) Bet $2.50, we're having no trouble getting it all in by the river, its a dry board, no need to be pot here
8) Committed, dont care what villian has
9) Its not a great card for HIS range
10) All-in, duh
11) Lovin' it

[frob23]

I like the responses so far. Come on everyone... no need to be afraid. Give it a shot.


I'll post my thoughts on the 27th. I want to give people time to think about it and post their responses.

[dew12109]

Yeah, sorry I didn't follow your format exactly... it was really early in the morning and it was too difficult to stay organized to follow that format

[phaul]

1) 0.50, standard
2) Prob something like AT-AQ, 55-JJ, KJ-KQ
3) Most flops are OK/good, only thing that would suck is like 987 flop. Very low flop is perfect cos it gives overpr vs overpr action with minimal sets.
4) Pretty sweet. Ship!
5) Committed (don't have time to go into detail).
6) Def not at 10NL!
7) Bet $2.25.
8) KQ, KJ, set of eights, maybe QQ, JJ. Still committed.
9) Pretty damn good.
10) Ship!
11) Happy. He's calling any hand he called turn with and we're ahead of his range.

[liladypokerpro]

I will reply when I have time to sit and read the whole thing as there are a lot of questions involved Probably tonight after work...

[frob23]

Originally Posted by liladypokerpro I will reply when I have time to sit and read the whole thing as there are a lot of questions involved Probably tonight after work...

I will be posting my thoughts tonight after 8pm... so time is running out.

[liladypokerpro]

Okay sorry I lost the thread lmao Let me get some coffee in me I just woke up then I will take a stab at it

[liladypokerpro]

Okay bear with me I'm a little scatter brained when I first wake up LOL

(1.) I am going to (d) raise $1.10...

Ok so I am big stack...so whatever I do here will likely be viewed as an attempt to steal, and may get more callers than I'd like. AA does not fare well in multi-way pots, so I want to either initiate a shove by the short stack or get one of the larger stacks to bite, but hopefully narrow the field with a larger than normal bet.


(2.) Okay the raise dumped three players, and now I'm left against CO with a mid-size stack and SB with a short stack...pretty much what I would have been after. But I still have I have no history on these players, so I do not know their hand range. I'd be more inclined to worry about SB as short stacks don't tend to pick fights with big stacks unless they've got something they think they can double up with...so I'd likely guess possibly AK, KK, QQ, JJ something along those lines, with the AK possibly being suited. As for CO, he's shorter than me, but not that short...he could be taking a stab at seeing a flop with 2 high suited connectors, maybe QJ or possibly a small hole pair.

(3.) Of course I'd love to see an unconnected rainbow flop with an A showing, but we can't always get what we wish for.

(4.) This flop would worry me a bit, primarily with the SB player...not so much the CO.

(5.) I hate having to do math when I just woke up, dammit frob! LOL I guess at this point SB has $4.42, CO has $8.79 or somewhere there abouts...anyway as for committment I don't use this as a rule too frequently because it can keep you from folding when you know you're beat, so I never say I'm committed unless I'm damn near all-in on a hand...but in this case I'm well ahead so there's no need to feel committed for me. Judging from my initial idea of ranges for the SB and given that short stacks don't tend to pick fights with big stacks unless they've got something worthy of competing, this flop bothers me a little so I'm not afraid of letting my hand go.

(6.) No I'm not feeling committed completely at this point with two players against me, so I can't answer the question.

(7.) SB checks...okay so after my initial large raise he could be giving me the liberty of betting for him...I'd likely check behind to the turn, as by him calling the initial raise I would sense something tricky by him checking on the flop.

(8.) See that's what I thought...he's just letting me bet and then smooth calling because no matter what he's committed to this hand now...so of course the hand I have to put him on is narrowed at this point to KK in my mind. Although I'm pretty sure I'm beat here, the SB is running out of chips, and the pot pretty much suggests staying in the hand as it won't cost much more to get SB all in at this point.

(9.) I think that the hand was won on the flop by SB personally, so the turn card really has no value for or against my hand at this point.

(10.) Well SB checks yet again, and he's probably only got about $0.90 or so left, so even if I check behind he's going to get it all in on the river...might as well go ahead and let him run with it now and put him all in since we've botched this hand up pretty bad thus far...

(11.) Of course I'm not going to be happy with the call because I've sensed defeat from the beginning...but I expected it...I mean as badly as this played out, what can ya do by this point? LOL I'm still sticking with my original suspicion of KK being his hand.

[frob23]

1) What do you do?
a) call $0.10
b) raise to $0.30
c) raise to $0.50 (4pts)
d) raise to $1.10 (2pts)
e) move all-in

Of course you're going to be raising. I think $0.50 is the best bet amount here from a technical perspective. Raising to $0.30 is not enough to narrow down the field. In this case, I am the person with the AA and I raised to $1.10 because I know a lot of the players on this level are looking to stand up to an aggressive player. I was hoping that someone would shove to this bet in an attempt to slow me down. I think it's technically the wrong play and thus is worth less points but in this case it worked out for me.


2) What type of hands do you expect to be up against here?

66-TT, 56s-QJs, AK, and very rarely JJ+ and maybe some other strong Aces. Against a loose enough player KQs and AQ could probably be in that range too. The vast majority of the range I expect to be up against here is made up of medium pairs and suited connecters... all hoping for a flop that is good enough to crack whatever I have. I expect JJ+ to be reraising pre-flop most of the time... same with AKs... so this is why I don't expect those hands after the calls. And most small pairs should fold... but this is $10NL so anything is possible.

3) Based on the above answer, what is a good flop for your hand and what would be a bad flop for your hand?

A good flop is one with zero or few middle cards. Q-2-3 is a good flop, for example. A bad one is any highly coordinated flop like 8-7-6 or a -- type flop. The less coordinated the better and the fewer medium cards is also better for me. I do not want to be up against two pair, a set, or a flopped straight or premium draw.

FLOP: K 2 8 (Pot $3.50)

4) How does this flop compare to your above range of hands?

This is a fantastic flop for our hand. I'm worried only about 8-8, which is unlikely. There's no flush or straight draws and two pair is highly unlikely. It's really not in my expectations to ever see 22 or KK here. So the 8s are the only hand I worry about.


5) What are the effective stacks for all the players in the hand and are you committed against those ranges -- based on those stacks, the above ranges, and this flop?

CO - $8.79, SB - $4.37

The pot is $3.50 giving up an SPR of less than 3 for both players (2.5 and 1.3 respectively). With this flop, these hand ranges, and our over-pair... we are absolutely committed. There is no way we're ever folding. The only question is how to get all the money into the pot as quickly as possible without the other players folding.

I know some people don't like getting committed like this. But you basically set up this hand pre-flop to ensure that you're not getting away from it. If the CO has 8-8... then so be it... you're just going to double him up. If you are folding on this board with these stacks, you're going to lose money over time.

6) If you are committed, is there any action that would make you change your mind from either of the players?

Of course not... we'd stand up and fist-pump.

7) What do you do?
a) check
b) bet $1.00 (2 pts)
c) bet $2.25 (3 pts)
d) bet $3.50 (1 pts)
e) move all-in

Never the one for subtlety, I bet the pot. I believe this is a mistake. If I bet $1.00 or $2.25, it would be much easier to keep both players in... in case they had a little something. There are no obvious draws out there and I am not worried about being out-played -- it's not like I can be bluffed off this pot once I've decided that I'm getting it all-in.

I am still favoring the larger bet size here. I'm still probably wrong. If I bet $1.00 and both call... the pot will be $6.50 on the turn... and I could bet $3.00 there or more... and possibly get both of them in.

8) What sort of hand do you expect the SB to have here and are you still committed?

I'm not completely sure. 8-8 is certainly possible but he should just be shoving. AK is high on my list of possible hands after this call.

TURN: K 2 8 9 (Pot $10.50)

9) Is this a good card or a bad card for your hand?

Well, it's not fantastic. But if he called on the flop with 8-9 or 9-9... more power to him. I highly doubt this card helped him.

SB checks

10) What do you do?
a) check
b) bet $0.30.
c) put the SB all-in (2 pts)

You bet $2.63, and the SB calls all-in for $0.87

I think I just hit the 1/3rd pot button -- hence the odd bet... but it was a foregone conclusion that we'd end up all in here. You're playing for stacks here... no checking, no underbetting... get every cent you can from him.

11) Are you happy with this call and do you expect to win this hand now that he has called?[/quote]

Of course I am happy. I can't expect him to fold anything here with the size of the pot. I do expect to win this hand the vast majority of the time.


Results

The river is a K 2 8 9 4 and the SB turns over A-Q for no-pair, no-draw on the flop -- MAN, I love $10NL at times. He loses with his Ace-high and I take the pot down with my pair of Aces.


Point values... whatever you think they're worth. You have an idea of how well you did here.

Personally, I believe I didn't get all the value I could have from this hand and that I left money in the CO's stack that should have ended up in mine. So I don't think I played it especially well... and I was mulling over it when I decided to make it the hand for this thread.

Edit: And no bad beats here... they don't always happen.

[liladypokerpro]

Wow well for that guy to play AQos in that manner he must really hate money then LOL