Folded JJ preflop 4 handed

[wilsonmja]

Don't know if I should have, but we were on the buble 4 handed in a tourny (live) and I folded JJ preflop to an all-in.

Me ad the guy that pushed literally had 80% of the chips at the table. He had me covered. He pushed pf the two SS folded, and I looked down at JJ and almost insta-called. Then I thought, "Why put them all at risk here when I could fall asleep now and coast into 2nd. I folded and when he threw his cards in a K turned up.

Should I have called?

I won btw.

[liladypokerpro]

I am one of those overly tight people who, on the bubble, would immediately fold a hand like JJ against an all inner. I get criticized for it often, but I think the same as you when it comes to bubble position...there is no need to risk your tournament life or position when you are so close to the money. Especially with a hand like JJ which can be dominated easily by any desperate Ax, Kx or Qx, or any array of other hands which would be heavily and recklessly played at this point in the tournament.

I rely very much on reads, but when it comes to the bubble, I notice many players who are dwindling in chips begin to hit panic mode, and then my previous reads could have no value, as they could be playing far out of their range, simply trying to crack a monster and get a lucky double-up. The critics are usually the ones who end up getting lucky with such a hand, but it has been my experience that patience and will power (for me) pays off far more frequently than relying on luck.

Personally, I agree with your choice, and apparently it paid off, as you won. So good job, and congrats on the win.

[frob23]

Although it is extremely nitty, I have made this fold before myself. And I wasn't even in danger of going broke. I had a very short-stack shove in front of me and a solid player reshove right after him... when it got to me, I could not see calling in that spot even though it was for slightly less than half my chips. I figured the first person could have anything but the solid player was probably reshoving with AQs+, AK, and TT+. And against the majority of that range, I wasn't happy. I made the fold after some thought.

After the hand played out, another player reached over and tabled my mucked cards (this is a common issue that the host doesn't deal with sternly enough). I would have won the hand but even more, I think the pure shock of my laying that down was too much for some of the people there. Later the solid player asked me about it, we talk poker after the game sometimes, and I explained the range I put him on and just said that it was a reaction to that range. As it turned out, my range for him was narrower than he was pushing with in that spot. But I was still happy with my fold.

Against his range, I was not the favorite. When I factor in the range of the original person and go against both of them, it's even worse for me.

Anyway, it depends on the range you thought the guy was making this move with. But I think the fold can easily be defended.

[iceveins0901]

In the Tournament frame of mind, you can actually wait for a better spot, this is one of those spots


would you really want to call all in with your stack against a guy who has you covered with JJ, and a very possible race situation? So many hands either have you flipping or dominated preflop, no reason to get involved there.

[Vito_Nuccio]

JJ is not as good a hand as it seems. There are 12 overcards and many race situations. I would much rather see a shove with this hand opposed to a call. JJ can be grouped with pairs from 88-JJ, mid pairs.

The bubble being close should not be the major variable in making your decision. Unless playing in a major tourney, the first payouts are not very much, the real money is at the end of the line.

But, the bubble should be a part of the whole picture, weigh it with position (hand and stack), reads, and gut feelings.

In this situation I can find myself folding sometimes and others shoving, it matters what my instincts tell me at the critical moment.

Thanks,

[allthatremains]

I fold. I only call QQ, KK, AA here. I also admit that I am nitty.

But, if I was in an earlier position and had raised first for say 1/4 to 1/5 of my stack I insta call. I'm not sure if this is a leak in my game or not.

[PointerJake]

I would fold for sure with the amount of chips you had. Now if you were short stacked, I would have insta-called. You made a very good decision and it looks like it paid off.

Its these decisions that separate the good profitable players from the average players. Often times an entire tournament can come down to one or two of these decisions. Good Job!

[iceveins0901]

Originally Posted by PointerJake I would fold for sure with the amount of chips you had. Now if you were short stacked, I would have insta-called. You made a very good decision and it looks like it paid off. Its these decisions that separate the good profitable players from the average players. Often times an entire tournament can come down to one or two of these decisions. Good Job!

yea, I think this was the main point I forgot to state, easy lay down that deep

[wilsonmja]

I must admit my surprise. Based on what the material I've been reading about playing aggressively on the bubble and thinking about ONLY first place and nothing else, I would have thought most people would say I should call here.

I will say that if any of the two shortstacks push and even if they were to show me they had two overs like AK I would have called. However, even if this guy would have showed me one over card I still fold. I just knew I was the best player at the table and I wasn't going to put it all at risk when I knew that heads up I would be able to outplay any of these people. I did end up winning the tourney and when I asked him what he had pushed with after the tourney he said he had KJs. He was basically drawing to 3 outs.

[iceveins0901]

this is the situation that always calls for a "it depends" answer instead of always being aggressive, and you figured that out, and the results went the way they should.

[frob23]

Originally Posted by wilsonmja I must admit my surprise. Based on what the material I've been reading about playing aggressively on the bubble and thinking about ONLY first place and nothing else, I would have thought most people would say I should call here.

Calling is not aggressive play. You raise or reraise the JJ, you do not call an all-in bet in front of you. Yeah, this isn't a bad hand and you might have the best of it... but you've already lost all the chance to put pressure on the other guy when he shoved all-in.

[The Poker Don]

Whether this was the right decision rests crucially on a range information not provided (position, tourny size etc), and particularly on the playing style of your opponent. However, if they had been at all aggressive, and there was any chance they were trying to blind steal (which would not be surprising given they are probably assuming you are folding almost anything), I dont think you can fold this. Certainly not in a sng. I play $50 buy in sngs on full tilt with an roi of around 20 and am calling almost every time.

[The Poker Don]

By the way, kind of perplexing that so many people are analyzing the hand so deeply and taking such strong stands with virtually none of the salient information. What kind of tournament was it? What were the stacks? What were the other players styles? What was your table image? What were the blinds? The list goes on. It is these factors that decide whether you should have called or folded. Without them being taken into consideration any advice you might get from this forum is essentially useless.

[wilsonmja]

Originally Posted by The Poker Don By the way, kind of perplexing that so many people are analyzing the hand so deeply and taking such strong stands with virtually none of the salient information. What kind of tournament was it? What were the stacks? What were the other players styles? What was your table image? What were the blinds? The list goes on. It is these factors that decide whether you should have called or folded. Without them being taken into consideration any advice you might get from this forum is essentially useless.

I agree. This goes along with my point that watching poker on TV is no way to learn how to play well. A right or wrong move is dependent on A LOT of factors, but I know that I did the right thing and I would have done it again. The guy who pushed barely had me covered, but together we had 80% of the chips at the table. The blinds were high enough that both short stacked players were dependent on luck. This guy was the UTG and I was button (4 handed). I assumed that since the small blind and big blind had most of their chips in, at least one of them would call and there would be a decent chance 3 of us would be free-rolling. I assumed wrong, as the big blind incorrectly folded with a little more than 1/3 of his chips in the pot.

They say you should always play to win and that sometimes means not worrying about who has a short-stack or who has a deep stack. You just are supposed to play your cards. In this case however, I was not even willing to put my tournament life at risk if he had flipped his cards and showed me AK, AQ, or KQ. I would have been reluctant, but probably called if he had showed AJ, KJ or QJ, but I'm sure I would call there.

The point is that sometimes you just have to break the "rules" and play your game. Many people would say I made a bad fold, but it just didn't feel right and I knew that folding would get me to the next hand and the next hand was likely going to be the hand that put me in the money. It was by the way, and I knocked out a SS with A7 over 33.)

[The Poker Don]

What kind of tournament was it? MTT of STT? Had your opponent been playing aggressively? Do you have the exact blinds and stack sizes?

[wilsonmja]

It was a MTT, 20 person, 2 table tourney. Top 3 paid. The guy I was against was someone I knew pretty well. He is relatively tight, but not very good. My best guess was that he had a big ace and was trying to isolate the big blind who he was pretty sure was going to go all-in.

[wilsonmja]

No, I don't have the exact blinds and stack sizes. This was about 2 months ago. I just think about it a lot and wanted to bring it up. I ended up heads up with him and won the tournament.

By the way, this was a live tournament not online. I can tell you that the blinds were significant enough that the 2 short stacked players had no more than 2 big blinds in their stacks and needed to make moves immediately, but the two of us with large stacks could afford to push them around, (probably had 10-12 big blinds in our stacks).

[chewbaka]

Iif someone can run an ICM for this hand, I'm 99% sure the correct play is a fold. ICM anyone?

[lockwoodlad]

4 handed, u have a top 5 starting hand and u fold to the big stack allin because u want to move up. have u ever won a tourney? u should be beating ur opponent into the pot here. u are probably 70/30 against his range and if u win will likely rake down the tourney. you folded aned will prob get 2nd but often 1st is 1.5-2x 2nd but only 4x4th

[The Poker Don]

I am calling this. It appears that you are well ahead of his range, and are well placed to have him dominated with a hand like A10 or lower, or a low pocket pair. And the fact that you won the tournament is irrelevant to whether it was the right play.