Pocket Jack when to fold

[Sazzita]

All in all Im happy with the way I played to make final table when at one stage I was all in bb for 800 (2 hands later had 8k) there was one hand that bugs me I had around 32k blinds 500 1k I get JJ player 1 rasies to 3 2 players fold & player 2 calls I re rasie with JJ to 6k to player 1 folds player 2 thinks i have AA or KK but calls 2 low cards and an a Ace comes I rase 9k he goes all in for 13k I think about then call because almost half my chips are in and maybe hes on a draw! he had AQ iit holds! Any advice? What would you have done?

[HeyKidMove]

If you're going to reraise in that spot you should have made it more. Something like 10-12k, your reraise isn't going to get anybody with a halfway decent hand to fold. It's probably better not to fire at the flop either unless you have a good read on the player and know that they don't have an A there.

[gamer4life27]

(Ment to post this yesterday, but comp messed up. So here it is now):

This is a simple case of not wanting to let go of a pocket pair in desperation that it might be the best hand.

You failed to display if there was straight draws, or flush draws out there. It could even be 99A, and the 99 could have helped him with 9 10 suited or something. But enough about the information you didn't give me, lets work with what you did give us.

You called the remaining 4k to leave you with 13k (I believe) with pocket jacks when you re-raised pre flop into a pot of 38.5k. Now you can have arguments that you could call for the pot odds ( 9.625:1 !!!) even though your behind because unless he has a set, you are not that big of an underdog compared to the pot odds. But then again, you do have 17k left before the call, plenty of money left with those blinds to keep playing your game and not be in all-in or fold mode.

If you thought he was on a draw, then you made the right call. But me looking onwards, I could not possibly put him on a draw. Two baby cards and an ace, what kinda draw could he have? He already stuck around 1/3 of his starting stack into the flop pre flop. And when you bet all but 4k, he's either going to go all in here, or fold and play super tight and give you a bunch of chips. He wants those chips, and he knows that it's going to give you the right pot odds to call since it's only 4k for you to call into that huge pot.

And pre flop, when you made it 6k after someone raised it to 3k, anyone would call. It's a min raise. The person who called between you and the original raiser is getting plenty of reasons to call, even with small cards and even if he thinks you have Aces, Kings, ect.

Now as for what I would have done, of course I would have called. You put yourself into a position to basically give him an extra 4k because of your bets. With someone smooth calling two times in a row is kinda fishy to me. He has got to have like a high pocket pair, or something like AK-A10 suited, or AK-AJ un-suited. He wants to see a flop before he makes a decision for the rest of his chips. There was no way to see he was going to push after you made that bet of 9k, but he did see that as an opportunity to get more chips out of you for the continuation bet. You are going to call with anything here as long as your arn't drawing completly dead.

My advice, next time, try checking once in a while in those spots. LOADS of internet and new players love to slow play hands such like Top pair strong kicker, and two pair, sets, ect. If they hit the flop, there going to slow play it most of the time. Check to see what comes out on the turn and see if he takes the opportunity to take the pot right there, or check it once more. Poker is all about a mind game, so you have to keep your opponent in check on what your going to do. Make him think your are the best player, who is unpredictable.

So all in all, it wasn't a bad move to call the all-in with jacks with an ace on board since you were getting over 9:1 on your odds, but it was bad to think he was on a draw as soon as he checked it to you. But if this play got you to the final table, then maybe your doing plenty of right moves that you just don't see. Ask someone to stand behind you, writing down some advice, good plays, good hands, ect. Then, look over it to see exactly how you are playing. Just make sure it's not one of your regular poker buddies so you don't give away free information.

[phosphorescence]

why do you think he thinks you have AA or KK?

i'd probably push all in pre flop personally. if he called your raise and an ace comes i'd play much more conservatively than you did (you committed yourself whereas you could have got away if you checked and he bet). if you didn't want to push you have to raise much more than to 6k, maybe 9k.

if you pushed pre flop AQ would have to fold, and you wouldn't have had a tough decision to make when an overcard inevitably comes. JJ is a hard hand to play after the flop. if you pushed and they folded well you would have won a healthy 7.5k, and if they called then there's only 3 hands which are ahead of you and it's unlikely they had one of them.

[gamer4life27]

But if an over card does come, jacks are hard to play on the flop, I do agree with that. But I can see why you made that bet. It's a continuation bet to see where you were at. It wasn't a bad move, but it isn't a bad sized bet either. You made him decide if he thought he had the best hand, and if he wanted to go all-in there. You wanted to see if your jacks were the best hand, and you found out when he pushed after your raise. But you were getting way too good pot odds to fold there. Unless he had a set of aces, you are getting right odds to call.

I keep saying pot odds, and your getting right pot odds to call because thats basically what it is. You put yourself in a place to get extremely good pot odds, and thats always a good thing. Remember, poker is a gamble, and you want to get your money in with the best of it. But sometimes, you have to take that chance and see if you come out on top.

[phosphorescence]

Originally Posted by gamer4life27 But if an over card does come, jacks are hard to play on the flop, I do agree with that. But I can see why you made that bet. It's a continuation bet to see where you were at. It wasn't a bad move, but it isn't a bad sized bet either. You made him decide if he thought he had the best hand, and if he wanted to go all-in there. You wanted to see if your jacks were the best hand, and you found out when he pushed after your raise. But you were getting way too good pot odds to fold there. Unless he had a set of aces, you are getting right odds to call. I keep saying pot odds, and your getting right pot odds to call because thats basically what it is. You put yourself in a place to get extremely good pot odds, and thats always a good thing. Remember, poker is a gamble, and you want to get your money in with the best of it. But sometimes, you have to take that chance and see if you come out on top.

i disagree with pretty much everything you just said, except the first line.

after he calls the raise, there's a good chance they've got an ace. continuation betting into this flop is a bad idea, especially considering their stack size (you can't fold to a reraise).

and this line is pure nonsense: "You put yourself in a place to get extremely good pot odds, and thats always a good thing". so betting so much you're forced to call a reraise with the worst hand is always a good thing?

[gamer4life27]

In this case it is. Pre flop, it's still a coin flip. So he put himself into a position to see the whole board instead of checking on the flop and being forced to fold on the turn if no jack came off. He wasn't that big of an underdog.

And I think I didn't make myself clear. I ment to say: 'thats always a good thing with pocket pairs.' He wanted to see if he was ahead with that continuation bet, something a beginning poker player would do. But those with some experience would take into the fact of chip stacks, previous hands, and previous out comes. Basically your reads on the opponent and the stack size compared to the blinds.

[liladypokerpro]

ummmmmmmmm sazzita is a chick lol just FYI.... lol

[Sazzita]

I belive he had me on aa or kk was because as he said i dont reraise on the flop that much!No flush draw think there was a 4 out there and the guy im up against likes k4 and not afarid to raise it all go all in on it and also pocket jacks is what I had the night before which lost too 45os it was not my finest hand other then that looking back I made a lot of good calls rfeading well but when i get it wrong i get it wrong! 3 final tables in 3 days is pretty good!

[liladypokerpro]

Yup you must be doing something right to get 3 finals in 3 days...

[irishpkr]

Wow this hand is so ugly, and usually I'm a very opinionated person as some of you may already know :P I don't mean the play was ugly, just a really shitty spot to be in, the very reason I hate tournies :P I dunno if its possible to just shove preflop, I'm only a cash player so this sort of 30BB deep situation doesnt come up often, but we have the sort of hand where there is gonna be overs on the flop about half the time. This means we either have to just call preflop if we want to get away, or make a commiting (maybe allin?) reraise preflop. The more I look at it, the more I want to shove preflop - there was a caller in front, so we can look like we're squeezing when in reality we're not. Additionally there are a number of flops we're just gonna flat out hate, we're never gonna know how to act on an Axx or Kxx board if we reraise to 9k preflop say, we're gonna only have about a pot size bet left which sucks. I think I'd just shove preflop to try and get heads up with some guy that might call you with 99-TT, AJ+ maybe, with the dead money in the pot it can't be wrong IMO

[phosphorescence]

Originally Posted by gamer4life27 In this case it is. Pre flop, it's still a coin flip. So he put himself into a position to see the whole board instead of checking on the flop and being forced to fold on the turn if no jack came off. He wasn't that big of an underdog. And I think I didn't make myself clear. I ment to say: 'thats always a good thing with pocket pairs.' He wanted to see if he was ahead with that continuation bet, something a beginning poker player would do. But those with some experience would take into the fact of chip stacks, previous hands, and previous out comes. Basically your reads on the opponent and the stack size compared to the blinds.

yes pre flop it's a coin flip, but if he pushes then AQ is pretty much forced to fold. JJ is certainly not a hand you want to see a flop with. I think when this guy has called 2 pre flop raises there's about an 80% chance he's got an ace, or i suppose he could be playing a medium pair badly. i still cannot agree with making a continuation bet here, it's just madness. you have to cut your losses and let it go when the ace comes. this is why pushing pre flop is the best idea.

when you say this,
"So he put himself into a position to see the whole board instead of checking on the flop and being forced to fold on the turn if no jack came off. He wasn't that big of an underdog."
it sounds like you're suggesting he check-calls the flop in hope of catching one of his TWO outs on the turn. surely you're not suggesting that are you? he wasn't that big of an underdog? if we assume the other guy has an ace, he's a 9-1 dog on the flop!

Originally Posted by irishpkr Wow this hand is so ugly, and usually I'm a very opinionated person as some of you may already know :P I don't mean the play was ugly, just a really shitty spot to be in, the very reason I hate tournies :P I dunno if its possible to just shove preflop, I'm only a cash player so this sort of 30BB deep situation doesnt come up often, but we have the sort of hand where there is gonna be overs on the flop about half the time. This means we either have to just call preflop if we want to get away, or make a commiting (maybe allin?) reraise preflop. The more I look at it, the more I want to shove preflop - there was a caller in front, so we can look like we're squeezing when in reality we're not. Additionally there are a number of flops we're just gonna flat out hate, we're never gonna know how to act on an Axx or Kxx board if we reraise to 9k preflop say, we're gonna only have about a pot size bet left which sucks. I think I'd just shove preflop to try and get heads up with some guy that might call you with 99-TT, AJ+ maybe, with the dead money in the pot it can't be wrong IMO

i agree, i think pushing is the right move. just calling is too passive, but it's better than making a tiny raise which is gonna get called and leave you committed.

[Vito_Nuccio]

The other player called an initial raise and then your raise, it is safe to say this player has either a decent pair, a good ace(AK-AQ), or is a donk. If the caller had KK or AA they would have pushed back at you after the inital bet and your raise, they did not which puts us back to decent pair or good Ace (or donk, which means good luck no matter what).

With the above information, the continuation bet could have been avoided and the hand declared a loss with an A on the flop. Players love aces, and I hate to see them on board when I have KK-QQ-JJ. While this was by definition a continuation bet, it really was not. The stakes were too high for information gathering, you either were going to take the hand down right there or face an all-in shove re-raise. If you are planning on using a continuation bet with JJ if A, K, or Q on board when in reality it is an all-in situation for the other player, then you are better shoving all your chips pre-flop once the first raise hit the table and the villian called.

Bye