Pf 4bet bluff shoving in LP?

[grimReaper]

Say a 16/15/4 with steal attempt 60% opens BTN, you 3bet from SB and they 4bet. They still have 4/5 of stack behind them, so plenty of potential fold equity. How often would shove here? Profitable? Do you do it with ATC (i.e situational) or a hand that has merit like a pp or AK?

[travz21]

Most people have an extremely narrow 4bet range that will always call a shove. Unless you have metagame and you know his range is wider, just fold.

[grimReaper]

title should read 5bet bluff, but you got the idea, thanks.

[grimReaper]

So at what point do you 5bet? If you get 4bet to $12.50, would do you 5bet shove or 5bet and shove flop?

[travz21]

So at what point do you 5bet? If you get 4bet to $12.50, would do you 5bet shove or 5bet and shove flop?

I never 5bet shove. All of my 5bet range is like 2x the 4bet. And there's no way anyone is just flatting a 5bet lol. So I don't know why you added that last part.

[grimReaper]

I never 5bet shove.

Why? Your range doesn't appear to be wider?

[travz21]

Why? Your range doesn't appear to be wider?

Because people fold a lot more when you double their 4bet compared to shoving. Plus it still gives them a chance to mess up by shoving KQ or something.

5betting that size allows a number of good things to happen imo. Shoving does nothing advantageous.

[grimReaper]

Because people fold a lot more when you double their 4bet compared to shoving.

Oh right lol, I was thinking about value with KK+.

[travz21]

Oh right lol, I was thinking about value with KK+.

I still 5bet the same with value hands. I like to stay balanced even in Rush. Regs can look back in hand history and see you play value hands differently than bluffs.

[grimReaper]

What hands are you 5betting against different villain types?

What hands would you never 5bet?

[travz21]

What hands are you 5betting against different villain types?

What hands would you never 5bet?

Anytime I 5bet bluff it's against a guy I have metagame with. So it doesn't happen too often. Fish that 4bet almost always have KK+ and will never fold. Villains with metagame will have a semi-wide range. But still, a villain that is 10/9/3 (most regs) isn't 4bet bluffing very often either. Their opening range is pretty solid. So unless their 4bet % is like 75%, 5betting those types of players with Ax won't be that good at all.

But villains with metagame that are like 13+/11+/4+ usually open their game up a lot more. They will get 3bet more often because they are playing more hands, so they'll try to counter with a lot of their range by 4betting.

Good hands to 5bet/call with would be any Ax hand really. It will have decent equity if they only stack off QQ+. Plus you have fold equity. But again, most people that 4bet are never folding in fullring. If villain will stack off with AT or worse, then you'll obviously have to switch up your 5betting range and not do it with A5s as much and stuff like that.

And this is all theoretical. Fullring never gets play like this, even from the best regs. It's mostly just people nitting it up and getting AA every hand.

[ROYAL1]

5betting that size allows a number of good things to happen imo. Shoving does nothing advantageous.

This isn't really true. A lot of times it ends the hand instead of pricing you into a race you'd rather not be in. For example, if you hold AK it's way better for you to just take it down than give the other guy room to shove a hand that has a lot of equity against you (pocket pairs, eg). Even in spots where you'd be slightly ahead against the range your opponent will get all-in with, you can still be better off just taking down the guaranteed money with a shove preflop.

There's definitely some merits to your small 5-bet strategy, but it's not infallible.

[travz21]

This isn't really true. A lot of times it ends the hand instead of pricing you into a race you'd rather not be in. For example, if you hold AK it's way better for you to just take it down than give the other guy room to shove a hand that has a lot of equity against you (pocket pairs, eg). Even in spots where you'd be slightly ahead against the range your opponent will get all-in with, you can still be better off just taking down the guaranteed money with a shove preflop.

There's definitely some merits to your small 5-bet strategy, but it's not infallible.

5betting to a number and 5betting all-in is essentially the same thing. One just looks different than the other. People aren't ever calling a 5bet and they know I won't ever be folding to their 6bet shove, so the hand is basically over right then anyways. 5betting small = 5bet shoving.