KK overpair help pls

Thread: KK overpair help pls

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  1. Squawk said:

    Default KK overpair help pls

    Hey guys. Hands like this are giving me a real problem. I'm pretty sure I'm ahead, I can't see how not to fire the second barrel on the turn, but after two calls what do I do on the river.

    Villain is 40/22 over 40 hands, I've seen him get all in by the river with KQ on a Q high very wet board, very aggressive with his top pair, and call an all in from another play on a paired and drawy board with KJ and just a paired king.

    Not enough history to figure out what his calling range for a 3bet might be since he only faced one that I saw (this one). I'm not putting 33 in there, 66 is a real stretch too, so maybe 88+ KQ+. I figure he 4bets QQ+


    Full Tilt - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

    Hero (SB): $6.52
    BB: $5.00
    UTG: $10.30
    MP: $7.19
    CO: $4.72
    BTN: $13.11

    Hero posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

    Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has K K

    UTG raises to $0.15, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.45, fold, UTG calls $0.30

    Flop: ($0.95, 2 players) 3 T 6
    Hero bets $0.85, UTG calls $0.85

    Turn: ($2.65, 2 players) 9
    Hero bets $2.65, UTG calls $2.65

    River: ($7.95, 2 players) 2
    Hero checks, UTG bets $2.26


    Errors? Only thing that stands out for me is the pot size turn bet which could arguably have been a bit smaller, but given the stack sizes I don't really think that matters, any river bet is all in regardless of turn bet size. Possibly could 3bet larger, but with KK quite frankly I really want a call here.

    What do we do at the end. Bet it out (was that a mistake?), call, fold?
  2. phaul said:

    Default

    First off why are you betting so much? Flop bet should normally be around $0.65, at most $0.75. This is the second hand I've seen you pot the turn, why so much? You're gonna fold a lot of opponents off the bottom of their calling range. I'd bet pretty close to $1.60 on that turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squawk View Post
    Errors? Only thing that stands out for me is the pot size turn bet which could arguably have been a bit smaller, but given the stack sizes I don't really think that matters, any river bet is all in regardless of turn bet size.
    What if he had two clubs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squawk View Post
    Hands like this are giving me a real problem. I'm pretty sure I'm ahead, I can't see how not to fire the second barrel on the turn, but after two calls what do I do on the river.
    Once you've been called on the flop (in most cases before you bet the flop), you need a plan for the hand. Look at stack sizes, the board and his range and work out what your best line is, don't just think one street at a time. If the river bet was bad then the turn bet probably was too unless he's a massive draw chaser. However;

    Quote Originally Posted by Squawk View Post
    Villain is 40/22 over 40 hands, I've seen him get all in by the river with KQ on a Q high very wet board, very aggressive with his top pair, and call an all in from another play on a paired and drawy board with KJ and just a paired king.
    The guy is clearly a drooler, I'd say anything other than barrelling it all-in by the river is horrendous considering how you absolutely crush his calling range. I'm guessing he had TT, 99 or T9, in this spot that's a cooler.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squawk View Post
    Not enough history to figure out what his calling range for a 3bet might be since he only faced one that I saw (this one). I'm not putting 33 in there, 66 is a real stretch too, so maybe 88+ KQ+. I figure he 4bets QQ+
    He is 40/22, I wouldn't be surprised if he has every pocket pair in his range.
  3. iAzzSexurMom said:

    Default

    depends on your read and his pfrange your dynamic with him based on previous hands.... we can't sit here and say what he had accurately he could be as strong as A10s on that flop or jacks/queens. he could be the type of player to float with gutters/AIR looking to bet the pot on a later street if you give up...

    he could be as weak as J10 or 77,88 ect ect there.

    you have to make a decision based on your read on him. you cant ask what he had because we could sit here and guess all day long. my guess would be on the weaker side of his rage j10, 77,88 flatting you cuz he thinks your on AK is no good or he can check jam if he hits 2 pair and you'll pay it off.

    i think you did make a mistake by not shoving the river there as he is likely paying off every shove you make with 80% of the hands i discussed in his range, and folding all his missed trash anyways. and he is gunna be betting every combination of made hands he could have when you check/out of fear/value pending on what he holds.


    the only things we know about this hands is this

    the river is a clear shove (all worse is paying a shove, all better is shoving on you regardless when you check)

    his hand range is too wide to determine what he has (pocket pairs 22-QQ, all one pair hands, all two pair hands, all gutshots, sets, all pair plus draws) the amount of combinations we are ahead of compared to what were behind is huge. IMO we are ahead of 80% of his range so it makes it a clear shove.
  4. Squawk said:

    Default

    Thanks guys, some great stuff for me to think about here. I'll digest it and come back with some thoughts.

    As it happens I do know what he had, because I called it and won the pot. He flipped over 88. Great read there mate, one day I'll figure out hand ranges that well.
  5. iAzzSexurMom said:

    Default

    ya he ended up having a one pair plus draw type hand which is exactly what your typical player shows up with there more times then not. a smart thinking player could possibly play aces this was as well.

    i think that your first step should be putting him on a range and once you have that "range" on him i think you should play your hand on how you could get the most value out of your hand vs hand. i wouldn't mind a turn shove either because he is almost always calling the turn bet as well.

    i find most players will call light on turn shoves because of how often people are representing draws there and how often they get called and show up with ak high or some combo draws ect.
  6. 101992 said:

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Squawk View Post
    Hey guys. Hands like this are giving me a real problem. I'm pretty sure I'm ahead, I can't see how not to fire the second barrel on the turn, but after two calls what do I do on the river.

    Villain is 40/22 over 40 hands, I've seen him get all in by the river with KQ on a Q high very wet board, very aggressive with his top pair, and call an all in from another play on a paired and drawy board with KJ and just a paired king.

    Not enough history to figure out what his calling range for a 3bet might be since he only faced one that I saw (this one). I'm not putting 33 in there, 66 is a real stretch too, so maybe 88+ KQ+. I figure he 4bets QQ+


    Full Tilt - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

    Hero (SB): $6.52
    BB: $5.00
    UTG: $10.30
    MP: $7.19
    CO: $4.72
    BTN: $13.11

    Hero posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

    Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has K K

    UTG raises to $0.15, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.45, fold, UTG calls $0.30

    Flop: ($0.95, 2 players) 3 T 6
    Hero bets $0.85, UTG calls $0.85

    Turn: ($2.65, 2 players) 9
    Hero bets $2.65, UTG calls $2.65

    River: ($7.95, 2 players) 2
    Hero checks, UTG bets $2.26


    Errors? Only thing that stands out for me is the pot size turn bet which could arguably have been a bit smaller, but given the stack sizes I don't really think that matters, any river bet is all in regardless of turn bet size. Possibly could 3bet larger, but with KK quite frankly I really want a call here.

    What do we do at the end. Bet it out (was that a mistake?), call, fold?
    id check shove the river. lots of missed draws and hes willing to put his stack in with top pair