Saw one of the most insane 3-bettors ever tonight.

Thread: Saw one of the most insane 3-bettors ever tonight.

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  1. frob23's Avatar

    frob23 said:

    Default Saw one of the most insane 3-bettors ever tonight.

    Thankfully, I was on his immediate left so it wasn't a huge deal for me. But this one player has a 3-bet stat of 12.4 (161 opportunities) and a small blind 3-bet of 32% (37 hands). It was actually higher for this session (41% -- 17 hands) because we had a guy who was frequently trying to steal and this player was 3-betting mercilessly. I've seen stats above 10% before but never with 100+ opportunities. It makes it even more insane in that he almost never 3-bet outside the blinds. He had a 4-5% 3-bet for the BTN and CO respectively.

    He "did" have a fold to 3-bet of 100% (only 15 hands) before I started playing back at his opens. Eventually he decided to take a stand. Unfortunately for him, I woke up with KK against his QQ that hand. And about one rotation later, he 3-bet my UTG open and called my 4-bet shove... taking another stand... I again had KK and he had JJ. Sadly, he left shortly after that.

    I hope to see him around... so long as I'm on his left.

    But it was just wild.

    Aggression pays, I guess. Although he was just a break even player up until he lost a little over two buy-ins to me at the end of this session. Now he's down that much. But that was also unlucky on this part.
    I get no respect. . . when I move all-in, people from other tables call.
  2. phaul said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by frob23 View Post
    Eventually he decided to take a stand. Unfortunately for him, I woke up with KK against his QQ that hand. And about one rotation later, he 3-bet my UTG open and called my 4-bet shove... taking another stand... I again had KK and he had JJ.
    In neither of these hands is he taking a stand, he's getting it in with the top of his range. You can't 3bet that wide and then not get it in with QQ. You also can't 3bet that wide and fold JJ to a 4bet shove. Also, why are you 4bet shoving?
  3. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by frob23 View Post
    Aggression pays, I guess.
    If all he does is 3bet and never flat, it's not so much aggression as it is just not having much postflop skills.

    And why are you 4bet shoving? Against this guy you will be 4bet bluffing a ton, so how are you sizing your bluffs?
  4. frob23's Avatar

    frob23 said:

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    I thought the 4-bet shove was obvious in this spot. No, I don't 4-bet shove all the time... but I do 4-bet shove as part of my response (not my only response) to frequent 3-bettors. The 4-bet shove is not a frequent tool but it does come out. I am sure this player has seen it at other tables. Now, many of the times I 4-bet shove, it isn't a premium hand. There's various reasons for this but I won't get too into them. But since I am not always doing it with a premium hand, I do want to do it once in a while with a premium hand.

    I felt this spot was ideal for 4-bet shoving with a premium hand for several reasons:
    1. I expect to get called more often than normal because this player just lost a big pot.
    2. This player just 4-bet shoved against me with QQ which means he knows it doesn't have to mean AA. Combined with his 3-bet stats, I strongly believe that he understands 4-bet shoving light-ish.
    3. If I raise small, this player might take more time to think about it then or on the flop if he just calls... I don't want him to have time to think about it.
    4. I believe, with the recent table conditions, that this player is only very slightly less likely to fold a worse hand to a smaller 4-bet. So I don't gain much value with a small 4-bet.
    5. Just flatting his 3-bet (which was smallish at 9.1xbb) would give an SPR of about 4.5 and give him too much opportunity after the flop to get away from a worse hand.


    As for him taking a stand or not with QQ. Yes, I guess that is the top of his range. Still an unfortunate spot for him. It should be noted that before that hand he had never resisted a 3-bet in any way... he'd just insta-fold and move on.
    I get no respect. . . when I move all-in, people from other tables call.
  5. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Unless he calls hands like AJ, then go ahead and shove. But if not, by shoving he plays perfectly against you, i.e continue strong, fold bluffs/medium strength. If I saw random shoves here and there, I'd immediately put you on basically JJ+/AK, and if you're bluffing, then np, you're risking you're whole stack on a bluff. From the sounds of the OP, just sounds like you coolered him, i.e he was getting it in anyway given the dynamic.

    If you 4bet here and there (bluffs and stack off value), you're going to gain by his bluffs/tilt and gain by preventing him from 3betting so often. Though you should probably just leave that table if he's on your left, plenty of other fish at 10NL.

    Fwiw, I never really started the 4betting game until 25nl and I don't think it's that common at 10nl and under, but still very powerful.
  6. frob23's Avatar

    frob23 said:

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    My 4-bet shove range is player dependent but it is not as narrow as JJ+/AK. And yes, there are times when I am 4-bet shoving as a bluff (in that most of my expected value comes from the fold equity from the play) and he could wake up with a big hand in that spot but I am not really concerned about that. A player that is 3-betting such a high percentage of hands is not going to have enough "big" hands in his range for me to be trapping myself here unless he's adjusted (which is why I don't do it too often against people and note when I do it) by calling wider than I would expect.

    Now, that said, JJ is in the standard range where I would expect this player to call a 4-bet shove almost regardless of the previous dynamics. But I didn't know he had JJ. The reason I felt that doing it with KK here, instead of a smaller 4-bet, was because I expected to get wider calls based on the previous circumstances. With the current dynamic, I expected calls from AQ, KQs [maybe... this one is doubtful], AJs, and maybe even pairs down to 77-88 (where he expects to be flipping against high cards but is willing to risk it to regain the losses from the recent hand). If he called a smaller 4-bet with 99... and the flop was Q-T-7... he could get away from it. Best to get him all-in preflop if possible -- which I expected it was.
    I get no respect. . . when I move all-in, people from other tables call.