What do you do with this situation?

[OTTOMAN POKER]

First scenario...

You have AsJs ;

Flop is KsTo5s ;



You just check, there are at least 3 pplayers in the pot, and some one raises pot size!

a) Fold
b) Call
c) Reraise 2/3 times of the raiser.
d) Go all in.




Second scenario...

You have AsKs ;

Flop is JsTo5s ;



You just check, there are at least 3 players in the pot, and some one raises pot size!

a) Fold
b) Call
c) Reraise 2/3 times of the raiser.
d) Go all in.




Third scenario...

You have AsKs ;

Flop is 7s9o5s ;



You just check, there are at least 3 players in the pot, and some one raises pot size!

a) Fold
b) Call
c) Reraise 2/3 times of the raiser.
d) Go all in.

"s" means same suited.

"o" means other (not) suited.

Also I would be glad to see someone (a mod) adds additional "do" to the header .

[gamer4life27]

Done and done. Have fun with your "survey".

[travz21]

We need a lot more details to make a clear decision, but if it's against a random player I'm raising and trying to get them to fold, but not too disappointed if they call. We want to use our fold equity and raise.

[OTTOMAN POKER]

Lets say, at least one player has a top pair.

[bogyci]

You should be more specific.. what's your position in the hand?
What's the stack size/pot ratio? What happened preflop? Any read on opponents?

My guess is (we're palying micro limits, right?), that there was at least a raise preflop, and now you're stuck with 3 random guys. A pot sized raise means it's already around 26bb in the pot, 13bb to call, leaving you with around 84bb if you call.

If there was a raise preflop, you'll have a lot of broadways and pocket pairs in your opponents range. I would expect someone check-raising/reraising sets or two pairs, or at least calling with all kind of draws. It would also mean that if you hit an A, it might be no good.

So yeah, I would call hoping to induce others to play their draws. If you hit it on the turn, a 3/4 pot bet is enough to put a deepstack all-in. If not, well.. depends on position, player reads, etc..

I made this long detailed post because I don't think there's ever enough fold equity at the micro stakes, on a draw heavy board vs three players that could justify a raise. Anyone willing to prove me wrong?

[travz21]

There doesn't need to be that much (or any) fold equity since in all 3 of these hands we'll be basically a coinflip against their all-in range.

[OTTOMAN POKER]

I prefer to coinflip in first and second situation, for any opponent number.

Third situation, I need 2 opponents or more to attack them.

I play very aggressive in such situations.


Bogyci I see you on tables in Cake.

[grimReaper]

Post a hand then edit it to match your scenario. Need many details. Plus add any HUD stats or reads.

Generally, I'll raise combo draws and shove turn (or if the cbet isn't as big as you mentioned, bet turn and shove river). This only applies to the non-Kxx flops. You need to have a semi-bluff barreling range to balance your sets/2pr, but you also need flushes in your c/c range.

BUT if they never fold Kx to a turn shove, then c/c flop. You don't want them snapping 6h turn for example and folding to a spade turn.

[bogyci]

There doesn't need to be that much (or any) fold equity since in all 3 of these hands we'll be basically a coinflip against their all-in range.

I get it, I just think it's more profitable playing it multiway then pushing it HU.

Given you have 3 players in the pot, you can check-call to the river and go all-in with a made hand rather then gamble it.

If you don't expect to have any fold equity on the flop, why would you push? You could just as well call an all-in bet on the turn, even if you missed it (you're still around a 30% favorite against their range).

[travz21]

If you don't expect to have any fold equity on the flop, why would you push? You could just as well call an all-in bet on the turn, even if you missed it (you're still around a 30% favorite against their range).

If there's more than 2 people in the pot and you'll be a coinflip if it gets all-in, you don't need any fold equity to make a profit because of the extra dead money from the other players that won't get all-in. And the more fold equity you have, the better it is to make that move. The real gamble is playing it cautiously and hoping that you hit your draw. There's actually more variance playing it that way. You're going to lose over half of the time unless you call every turn no matter what, and even if you win, the majority of the time it won't be for a big enough pot to make up for your losses from playing it cautiously. Compare that to if you try to get it all-in every time. You'll win if you get them to fold and you'll win half the time when you get called. You won't be losing any money by calling to see if your draw hits. You'll also have the benefit of balancing your range and playing your strong hands this way, too.

The good part about playing draws this way in multi-way pots is that hand strength is usually much stronger when the betting action is like that compared to heads up. It probably won't matter a whole lot at the micros, but imagine if you're a good player and there are 4 people in the pot and you raised with AA preflop and the flop comes KT6 with a flush draw and there's lots of betting and raising going on. Most of the time you should be folding here when there's that many people in the pot.

That's just one way to demonstrate how easy it is to play aggressively with combo draws in multiway pots. People will almost always think you have 2 pair or better. You just have to be careful to not always play other draws like this all the time, like the low end of the open-ended straight draw or undercarded flush draws. Your equity isn't nearly as good with those hands.


I don't really know what I wrote there. My poker mind is really unfocused since I haven't played since April. All the info is there, it's just not pretty lol.

[bogyci]

...The real gamble is playing it cautiously and hoping that you hit your draw. There's actually more variance playing it that way.

That got me thinking, and I still think it's really limit/player dependent. It's a question of how often they can get away with second best hands and how big the turn bet is.. But I really didn't realize until now my play actually has more variance.

[travz21]

To tell the truth, you won't get very many combo draws anyways. We're talking about a very specific example here. I don't know if you have Pokertracker or anything, but I took my last 35,000 hands of NL50 Rush and filtered for a flush draw on the flop that has exactly 2 of the suits and I only had a sample of 105. If I also filtered for combo draws and multi-way pots I'm sure it would be less than 10.

This was also a very tight game, though. So those numbers probably don't represent normal game conditions very well.

I couldn't find very many good examples of aggression in that 35k sample. People just folded a lot or called a lot. Not much raising and reraising.

Here's my filtered graph anyways. NL50 Rush fullring, flush draw on flop, 2 tone board.

Amount Won in USD over Hands Played for TZwien.jpg


So I think that would be something to look for. If you're losing money on flush draws, there might be a big problem.

[OTTOMAN POKER]

I think being aggressive is good, because nobody calls anymore, when the third suited card drop to the table.