A fun deep hand with top set.

Thread: A fun deep hand with top set.

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  1. frob23's Avatar

    frob23 said:

    Default A fun deep hand with top set.

    One big sign that I've been having a rough session, I start seeing monsters under the bed! Obviously when I flop top set, I'm going to be up against the nut straight all the time, right?

    This player and I have been butting heads for a while. He's a 20/9 with a 3bet of like 3%... but he really hates to fold his blinds (defending 44% of the time). So I consider his range here to be mega-wide. And we're deep. Here's a fun spot I got myself into. He's passive pre-flop but can be aggressive post flop. He's definitely not worried about needing the nuts to move money around but he also seems aware that hand values shrink as the stacks get deeper. I've had him call/check/check down a moderate pot earlier on a J-high flop with T-T.

    6 max - Holdem - 5 players

    SB: 193.5xbb
    BB: 100xbb
    UTG: 186xbb
    Hero (CO): 290xbb
    BTN: 117.5xbb

    SB posts SB 0.5xbb, BB posts BB 1xbb

    Pre Flop: (1.5xbb) Hero has 7 7

    fold, Hero raises to 3.5xbb, fold, SB calls 3xbb, BB calls 2.5xbb
    This is pretty standard. The SB is a loose defender, as mentioned already, so I consider his range to be very wide. The BB is tighter and more likely to hold a pair or a couple high cards.


    Flop: (10.5xbb, 3 players) 5 7 6 {SPR: 18ish}
    SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 8xbb, SB raises to 24xbb, fold, Hero calls 16xbb
    Well, top set is nice but it's far from the nuts on a flop like this when someone could easily be defending with 98s. For 100xbb, I might just have to go broke to 98s. I might not but I would probably lose a substantial amount. But for almost 200xbb, it's less of a sure thing. I don't want to get all in at this point.

    This is probably way over-cautious. Against a player defending such a wide range, the nuts isn't much of it. But how much of that wide range is check-raising this flop? Surely it's not only the nuts (like I said, this player can get aggressive post-flop and knows how to put pressure on people)... besides, it's really hard for me to be very strong on this flop which means he should be check-raising often. He's decent enough, post-flop, to recognize that this is not a good flop for my range.


    Turn: (58.5xbb, 2 players) 2
    SB bets 37.5xbb, Hero calls 37.5xbb
    A blank but I'm still not feeling too great about my hand. Over and over this session I've been coolered and I just feel like this is a spot for it. What else is he raising on the flop? If there was a flush draw, I might see that played aggressively but there's not much else. If the guy had a high pair, he probably would have 3-bet preflop. He's not clueless.

    If he checked here, I could assume that he was just attacking my weak range on the flop. But he leads out for about 2/3rds pot. It's a big bet for a bluff. It also has great leverage -- but I think that is incidental. I don't think this player is good enough to realize that he's setting up one pot sized bet left, which is intimidating. If I call this, I have to be prepared for a potential shove. I do make the call. It's probably not a great call but I think there is at least a fair chance that he's attacking my weak range, since this card never helps me, and might give up on the river.


    River: (133.5xbb, 2 players) ???
    I'll leave the river a mystery for now. But what should I be planning for the river after I call on the turn? The pot's going to be 133.5xbb and the remaining effective stacks are going to be 128.5xbb -- meaning my opponent is perfectly situated for a pot-sized shove. What are good cards for me? What are bad ones? What actions do I want?

    Some various rivers/actions to consider.
    A
    {Opponent shoves, opponent bets 65xbb, opponent checks}

    J
    {Opponent shoves, opponent bets 65xbb, opponent checks}

    Q
    {Opponent shoves, opponent bets 65xbb, opponent checks}

    8
    {Opponent shoves, opponent bets 65xbb, opponent checks}

    8
    {Opponent shoves, opponent bets 65xbb, opponent checks}

    4
    {Opponent shoves, opponent bets 65xbb, opponent checks}

    6
    {Opponent shoves, opponent bets 65xbb, opponent checks}

    2
    {Opponent shoves, opponent bets 65xbb, opponent checks}
    I get no respect. . . when I move all-in, people from other tables call.
  2. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    Any river that isn't a 3, 4, 8, or 9 is pretty much irrelevant and is always a call when he shoves.

    I'm just 3betting the flop. You said he's aggressive. I'm sure he could be check/raising with a semi-wide range and he might even continue in the hand with a big portion of it when you 3bet.

    He could check/raise an overpair, two pair, straight draw, pair + draw, a set, or a straight. For all we know he might stick more money in with all of those if we 3bet. Even if he only continues with 89s/34s and sets we're doing well.

    Hand 0: 60.242% 58.55% 01.69% 8115 234.50 { 7d7s }
    Hand 1: 39.758% 38.07% 01.69% 5276 234.50 { 66-55, 98s, 43s }


    The worst part about calling the flop is having him feel worse about his hand on later streets and shutting down when he might put in more money if we just raise the flop. A strong flop hand might stick in more money on the flop but shut down on turns and rivers if we just flat his check/raise. Hands like an overpair, two pair, or a pair + straight draw. And obviously if straight cards come out we're going to lose action from a worse set.

    Thinking too much about your play on boards like this usually leads to unnecessary problems. If it were a board like K72, then you could start thinking about more elaborate plays.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  3. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    I usually don't pay attention to SB VPIP. If we're going to go into detail what he's doing from the SB, we need hands shown down. He's 20/9/3 so he's not likely to run any creative bluffs (e.g gutters, randoms to get you to fold overpairs etc) as someone as tight/passive as him is not likely shoving 120x+ on river with air/78. Random spaz is possible, but not likely. Whether we call depends on if he's loose enough to defend w/ 89o. Except for the board pairing and a 4/9, all cards are pretty much the same.
  4. frob23's Avatar

    frob23 said:

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    Don't let his passiveness preflop mislead you post flop. This player is definitely capable of running elaborate and aggressive plays on the flop and turn. I've seen this before where he's checkraised c-bets on low board and shown up with Q-high and stuff like that. He's not completely spewy though. On the board, I think his betting range is a lot wider than his stack-off range.

    Edit: I forgot to add in the original post, I don't know what he has for my stats full time (we've played a lot together) but I was running 27/24 with an attempt to steal of 41% (maybe a little higher than usual) and a C-bet of 59% -- wow, that's lower than I expected. My fold-c-bet to a raise was 50% but there had been only two incidents where my c-bet was raised on this table. So my range from the CO is wider than the Atlantic and he knows (mostly from other tables) that I c-bet often and can give up when check-raised. The flop could be just bluster. Not that raising makes it profitable because none of that air puts more money in.

    On the flop, I think a more reasonable range for him to continue after a 3-bet is {99-88,66-55, 98s,87s,54s,43s,98o,87o,54o,43o} -- I do "ok" against such a range (57% to 43%}... if I was closing the action. But a 3-bet here still leaves a lot of money behind and he can call it and force me to give up on a lot of turns. He might not even play 99 there... which makes my odds worse. Is he going to call a 3-bet for a third of his stack with TT here? I don't think so. He might bet a third of his stack with TT... but he's much more likely to put money in with a bet than with a call. With how tight his 3-bet calling range post-flop is, this deep, I don't think I want to play for stacks with an SPR of 18 and set on a 7-6-5r flop.

    The big street, for my choices of possible rivers, is the turn. While he might be check-raising a lot of his hands on the flop, what portion of his range is he then double barreling?

    He's only going to continue with hands that have value or that improved. For example, he's almost certainly check-raising A-J and A-J on the flop. But he's probably only continuing with A-J on that turn. In fact, almost any A-x will probably get a second bet out of him. So we've got sets, pair+draws (like 5-4), over-pairs he wouldn't 3-bet (88-JJ maybe), made straights, and maybe a little air simply because there's no way the 2 helps me.

    Granted, I am ahead here against this whole range. But against his calling range of my shove on the turn (say it's 88,66-55,22,98s,5d4d,43s,98o,43o) I am behind (44.5% to 55.5%). This guy isn't going to call off over a buy-in with a bare flush draw. Even if we add a couple, I'm still not in great shape against his calling range.

    For that reason, A on the river worries me a lot less than J (the former removes a lot of his double barrel range that backdoor flushes).

    And 8 is about the worst card in the deck. Even if he checks to me on it, I can't reasonably bet. The board is way too coordinated in that spot for him to call with worse.

    The 4 hand also sucks for me. That's probably my hardest hand to deal with if he shoves into me.

    With his range, that I assume he's on... the rivers I picked are fairly representative of "all" possible river scenarios.
    I get no respect. . . when I move all-in, people from other tables call.
  5. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by travz21 View Post
    I'm just 3betting the flop. You said he's aggressive. I'm sure he could be check/raising with a semi-wide range and he might even continue in the hand with a big portion of it when you 3bet.

    He could check/raise an overpair, two pair, straight draw, pair + draw, a set, or a straight. For all we know he might stick more money in with all of those if we 3bet. Even if he only continues with 89s/34s and sets we're doing well.
    I like 3bet if his c/r is for value or a semi-bluff, which is the case if he's passive/tight. If he's lag then I like to call and allow him to donate another bet on the turn.

    But by default, what hands are you flatting on the flop and which hands are you 3betting?

    Flatting: Overpairs, bottom set, 78, two pair? It's really easy to play against that.
    3betting: Sets, straights, i.e no bluffs? It's really easy to play against that too.

    Calling balances things out
  6. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by grimReaper View Post
    I like 3bet if his c/r is for value or a semi-bluff, which is the case if he's passive/tight. If he's lag then I like to call and allow him to donate another bet on the turn.

    But by default, what hands are you flatting on the flop and which hands are you 3betting?

    Flatting: Overpairs, bottom set, 78, two pair? It's really easy to play against that.
    3betting: Sets, straights, i.e no bluffs? It's really easy to play against that too.

    Calling balances things out
    Yeah, you're right. Playing deep is so rare though that I don't really try to balance things unless I know I'm playing against a good reg. Most people don't know how to play deep and will still donate to you regardless if you're only 3betting with nut-like hands.

    But if I'm playing a good reg here, I'm going to question why he's check/raising me OOP on this flop 190bb deep. No good player will ever bluff like this. They probably won't even semi-bluff like this unless they have 78. It's almost always a c/r for value.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  7. frob23's Avatar

    frob23 said:

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    Travz, if it makes you feel better (although it narrows the ranges above and limits thought) he definitely was check raising for value on this flop.

    I don't want to give away too much but when the hand was over, I could tell he was trying to take advantage of my wide steals, frequent cbets, and hesitant nature about giving up on flops that miss most people's ranges when played back at. It was based a lot on our history with each other.

    So, in a sense, you're right on the money here.
    I get no respect. . . when I move all-in, people from other tables call.
  8. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by frob23 View Post
    Don't let his passiveness preflop mislead you post flop. This player is definitely capable of running elaborate and aggressive plays on the flop and turn.
    How/like?

    Quote Originally Posted by frob23 View Post
    I've seen this before where he's checkraised c-bets on low board and shown up with Q-high and stuff like that. He's not completely spewy though.
    Against someone who opens and cbets a ton, c/r once or twice doesn't make him aggressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by frob23 View Post
    On the flop, I think a more reasonable range for him to continue after a 3-bet is {99-88,66-55, 98s,87s,54s,43s,98o,87o,54o,43o} --
    Too much heat for 99, 88 should fold but he might call. He could have JJ b/c he never 3bets and is in overpair mode.

    He never has 43o,54o. Even 40/5 fish have a hard time playing 34o.


    Quote Originally Posted by frob23 View Post
    He's only going to continue with hands that have value or that improved. For example, he's almost certainly check-raising A-J and A-J on the flop.
    Why? Even so, that's just 2 negligible combos.

    Quote Originally Posted by frob23 View Post
    he definitely was check raising for value on this flop.
    A little result oriented, but clearly so (esp after his turn barrel), like I said he's 20/9/3. Like I said, he's not going to make elaborate multi-street bluffs, hoping you fold overpairs, top pair, pair+str draw etc. At max he might c/r flop to get you to fold your air, but even he should know this board is fairly connected.

    Don't think like a 1000NL player while playing low stakes.
  9. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    I miss talking about poker.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  10. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    I miss playing it
  11. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    Zoom. One time.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  12. C8H10N4O2 said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by grimReaper View Post
    I miss playing it
    I played live poker the other day. I couldn't handle it. It's so slow even after not playing for so long. I think rush poker ruined me.
  13. purplechip1's Avatar

    purplechip1 said:

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