Let's Have a Discussion about Open-Raise Sizes

[maf005]

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[liladypokerpro]

I understand the logic behind this but I'm curious if consistently raising larger amounts with larger hands and raising smaller amounts with lesser hands would soon become an easy tell for a seasoned player to read? The only reason I raise this question is because a buddy of mine made a habit of this tactic and thus I always knew when he had a big hand...that tell saved me a lot of money and cost him as much. If one were to implement this strategy successfully, perhaps each raise amount should be different, but slight enough so as not to tip off other players?

[Fictive]

Personally, I don't like changing my pre-flop bet sizes much, simply because it does give out information to the player who pays attention. Most of the time, I always raise the same amount, no matter if I got 78s or AA.

Another thing that comes to mind is Phil Gordon's Little Green book (to me, by far the best book on no limit hold'e,), where he says that when raising from UTG or the early position, he likes to make just a tad little smaller raises than he would from middle or late position.

[liladypokerpro]

Yes I was not referring to pre-flop raises, so I agree with what you have presented on that note.

[CoolHandDave]

I think its a dangerous assumption to believe that the deeper-stacked you are the bigger the raise should be.
There isn't any good reason why you would raise more just because you have more, the only exception would be if you knew you would get a call from a live one and could tie him into his hand..
Remember that in no-limit when you play a pot, your ENTIRE stack is at risk, the last thing you want to do is commit yourself from your opener and cont. bet.

I personally raise 3x BB with all my raising hands (I won't tell you my ranges, for obv reasons lol)
This could be JQo or AA or some random hand that i decide to play.
The reason is that you can't ever get a read on me, if i varied my raises, a pattern may develop and someone could pick up on it.

Generally, reserve your big openers for when you have a monster (AA,KK) and know you can get action. I wouldn't recommend raising more than 5xbb to open anyway because

A) You will scare off potential action
B) The only hands that will play will be very close to yours in equity, If you have AKo and raise big, you will scare away the A3, A5 etc that you wouldve wanted to play against.

Better to let them in and beat you once in 8 than scare them away and win the blinds 8x

[maf005]

yea i did not mean that to sound like i was raising different amounts depending on hand strength. its only meant for stack sizes.

To use an extreme example, an open raise to $40 with $1 blind and $100 stacks (ignoring other issues) completely negates your positional advantage, as your opponent will either just shove or fold, and you don't get to make any meaningful decisions. With an open raise to $40 with $1 blinds and $10,000 stacks this is not the case. You will still get to make as many meaningful decisions as possible with your positional advantage. You are, however, creating a pot that is much larger on average than if you had made a much smaller opening raise. If you believed you had the best of it when playing in position, and if your opponent would not alter his strategy regardless of whether you made an open raise of $5 or $40 the open raise to $40 would be the superior strategy.

To look at it form a much less exaggerated and contrived angle, though, let's talk about a common poker situation. You are playing against an opponent whom you believe you are a favorite against. If your strategy with stacks of 100bb is to open-raise for 3x then why wouldn't open-raising to 4x be a superior strategy with stacks of 200bb, or 300bb?

[CoolHandDave]

You bring up some good points here MAF, although 10,000bb stacks really shows an extreme example..

Lets assume we are playing a deep stacked live game, buying in for 800bb (which btw does happen, in the end of season 4 of HSP the min buyin is 500k, which is 833 x the $600 bb)

If our BB is $1 then yes i agree, $3 is a little low (800bb stacks means we are here to gamble) perhaps $10 would be a decent sized raise, and then a typical 3-bet would be $30 (enough to make it callable, but not enough to scare any action away)

So you've raised 10, and the button 3-bets you, the blinds fold and you're heads up. The pot here would be $61.50. Can you see what's happening? In a game where the BB is $1, 2 players are contesting a pot worth $60 so with a continuation bet you're looking at a pot worth over $100 already. I would be doing everything I could to rake that pot, and I think its not a callable position to be in.

My reasons for saying this are possibly in need of clarification

When you have a big stack behind you, you need to protect it, and the only viable move would be a fold or a shove. I would not want to put myself in the position of playing a $250 pot with $650-700 behind me, you can't risk committing yourself with a marginal hand that otherwise you might be inclined to call with.

I think the deepstacked play is beyond a lot of $100NL players, at least the finer points are.
It could well create situations where 2 players HAVE to shove simply because of what is already in the pot.

I think all in all you'd be better off playing $1000NL with a $10 BB simply because the huge stacks make you nervous to play properly as a wrong move could well see all your chips in the middle with very little hope.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense to people but i'm on my lunch break and haven't got time to properly check, i will re-write this post if necessary to clear it up

Excellent thread btw, very good topic and i hope this gets plenty of replies

[liladypokerpro]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh.......

I see said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw!

[maf005]

Dave i the post was referring to mainly HU but i guess it would apply to any deep game.

[CoolHandDave]

Yes i see HU is different but concepts do translate between..

I guess what i mean is that by open-raising large, you can expose yourself to all-in semi-bluffs preflop, and all you'll really achieve is to win his blind 80% of the time and to endanger your stack the other 20%

Remember that when you raise heavily, the only hand that will call you will be beating you.. unless you have the aces but then i guess you'd just want to call or 3xbb to build a worthwhile pot.

Believe me when i say it that massive pf raises tend to scare action away if you wanted it, and give the oppo a nice pot when he has something to reraise with..

[maf005]

i personally think this ties directly into the same concept as 3-betting lighter the deeper stacks get. to 3-bet a huge %of ur range pre with very deep stacks is completely standard