BAD BEAT, what would you have done?

[ungarstu132]

PokerStars Game #: Tournament # $11+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50)
Table '43186539 3' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Gotspeed1 (1710 in chips)
Seat 2: ME (1675 in chips)
Seat 3: cactuspear (2730 in chips)
Seat 4: TJ1971 (2185 in chips)
Seat 5: skynyrrd (1170 in chips)
Seat 6: yellowrim (1390 in chips)
Seat 7: susieq299 (1440 in chips)
Seat 8: Hans Teeuwen (1875 in chips)
Seat 9: Royalusher (765 in chips)
skynyrrd: posts small blind 25
yellowrim: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ME [3s 3d]
susieq299: calls 50
Hans Teeuwen: folds
Royalusher: folds
Gotspeed1: calls 50
ME: raises 200 to 250
cactuspear: folds
TJ1971: folds
skynyrrd: folds
yellowrim: folds
susieq299: calls 200
Gotspeed1: calls 200
*** FLOP *** [Ad Js 3c]
susieq299: checks
Gotspeed1: checks
ME: checks
*** TURN *** [Ad Js 3c] [4s]
susieq299: bets 150
Gotspeed1: raises 250 to 400
ME: calls 400
susieq299: calls 250
*** RIVER *** [Ad Js 3c 4s] [6s]
susieq299: checks
Gotspeed1: checks
ME: bets 600
susieq299: calls 600
Gotspeed1: calls 600
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ME: shows [3s 3d] (three of a kind, Threes)
susieq299: mucks hand
Gotspeed1: shows [4d 4c] (three of a kind, Fours)
Gotspeed1 collected 3825 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3825 | Rake 0
Board [Ad Js 3c 4s 6s]
Seat 1: Gotspeed1 showed [4d 4c] and won (3825) with three of a kind, Fours
Seat 2: ME showed [3s 3d] and lost with three of a kind, Threes
Seat 3: cactuspear folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: TJ1971 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: skynyrrd (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: yellowrim (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: susieq299 mucked [Qs Jd]
Seat 8: Hans Teeuwen folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Royalusher folded before Flop (didn't bet)



What would you have done differently to possibly avoid losing this hand?
-do what i did
-pushed pre-flop
-bet more pre-flop
-bet the flop small
-bet the flop big
-push on the flop

What would you have done?

Please let me know by posting and voting !!

[irishpkr]

For the love of god continuation bet the flop, and if you're not gonna do that, 100% raise the turn, what are you waiting for here? go broke, its a cooler, move on
this was butchered

[ungarstu132]

For the love of god continuation bet the flop, and if you're not gonna do that, 100% raise the turn, what are you waiting for here? go broke, its a cooler, move on
this was butchered

I was trying a big trap play, and it would have worked 100% if that four didnt hit the turn.

And how can i put him on 44 on the turn, i put them on A x or some sorts, and that flat call would get more money out of them.

[irishpkr]

I was trying a big trap play

Heres where things went wrong. You just fell into FPS - Fancy Play Syndrome. Just bet flop, then depending on opponent, bet or check the flop if checked to, bet river. You want to get your whole stack in the middle, you've only got ~30BB and still didnt manage to. Most times at small stakes, if you want value, you should bet, ie put money in the middle. But I wouldnt worry about losing this hand, you should be wondering why you didnt lose your whole stack. I'm going broke here 100% of the time.

[bestgamblebonus]

I think this is a fairly common mistake that you made, and with a little thought into the hand you should be able to clearly say why. You just flopped bottom set on a A-J-3 rainbow board. You had to preflop callers who both checked to you on the flop. What are you trying to accomplish by checking on the flop? Usually you want to check a monster (not a bottom set) on a nothing flop and hope for someone to catch up. In this situation you didn't flop a monster and the board has something. Checking allows other pocket pairs to catch up (which you learned) or lets a guy holding kq (which is likely in a raised pot) to get a free card to his straight. You are hoping one of the callers called with a strong ace, even better AJ, and you want to go ahead and get him now. There is no reason to wait for the turn to strike.

[ungarstu132]

I think this is a fairly common mistake that you made, and with a little thought into the hand you should be able to clearly say why. You just flopped bottom set on a A-J-3 rainbow board. You had to preflop callers who both checked to you on the flop. What are you trying to accomplish by checking on the flop? Usually you want to check a monster (not a bottom set) on a nothing flop and hope for someone to catch up. In this situation you didn't flop a monster and the board has something. Checking allows other pocket pairs to catch up (which you learned) or lets a guy holding kq (which is likely in a raised pot) to get a free card to his straight. You are hoping one of the callers called with a strong ace, even better AJ, and you want to go ahead and get him now. There is no reason to wait for the turn to strike.

i do see what you mean, and you are extremely correct, but if my read was correct, with high cards and a pair with the board at best, in my eyes my play is correct, because they would have needed runner runner. and the odds of that happen do not over power the risk i am taking by checking.

[irishpkr]

When you hit a set you want to get your whole stack in there, you only have less than 40BB here and you didnt get it all in. As if that wasnt indication enough that you slowplayed this to death

[liladypokerpro]

Personally, this sounds like a classic case of "What If" syndrome...

What I mean is, by asking yourself " what if " so much, you actually talk yourself into making a poor play in this case, when the usual (and most logical) tactic would be to make a move.

With a set on the flop, it's always a good idea to make an early move with it....most especially with that particular board. There could be any number of chasers out there, who for a small price (or in this case free of charge) are glad to chase it down. But if you make a strong play at them, they may second guess their original intentions and get out of your way.

I agree with what was said previously....there is no justifyable reason to allow other players to catch their hand at this point. If you plan to show strength, you cannot back down, or the assumption of weakness sensed by other players will lead you to loss.

[ungarstu132]

So far i strongly agree with everybody's responses, and im glad to learn about how i made my mistake.

But does anybody see the way i looked at it.

The way the other two players in the pot played the hand seemed like they had AK, AQ,KQ,KJ, or somthing like that, basically two high cards.

If thats the case, then to have beaten my trip 3s they would have needed runner runner. So i went ahead and took the risk to slow play the hand thinking i would get to the river with all the money in and have no problem of winning.

Am i wrong to assume this?

[mrsclouder12]

Here is something almost every beginner or novice player never thinks about...


When you check the flop, check/call the turn, then BOOM you come in strong on the river, its a pretty big alarm and any decent player will pick up on it. You may get a hand as good as AK to fold here on the river by slow playing that big, so in essence you are actually LOSING value by not betting the flop. If you lead hard on the flop, any AK or AQ almost has to raise you here. Odds are if you lead strongly on the flop as well as the turn, you are going to be getting it all in against a weaker hand if someone has anything worth calling here in the first place.

Your check on the flop is just terrible, you give 44-1010, and QQ/KK a free card to hit a set. The ONLY way you get any value from a middle pair from here on out is if he hits a higher set. So you are essentially shooting yourself in the foot by making this play.


Something else to consider...

Contrary to what you may believe, this is NOT a bad beat. When the majority of the money went in this pot, you were behind. Especially when you give him the ffree card to beat yoyu, it is NOT a bad beat. Its unfortunate and definitely a cooler, but its part of the game, its not the first time its happened and its definitely not the last.

[ungarstu132]

yeah, i nderstand bad beats are part of the game. im not complaining, just trying to figure out how i could have played better, and you're right, im just letting a higher pair hit a set.

thanx

[frob23]

I haven't read the replies from other people, yet, because I don't want them to taint my view.

I hate the pre-flop raise. You have an UTG limper and a caller already. You're not going to pick this pot up pre-flop with that raise... so you're going to have to hit your set. When you don't, you will be folding. Why put money into a pot you're likely going to have to get away from when it doesn't increase your chances of winning now.

Limp... let people in. The more people, the happier you'll be. If you hit your set, someone might have something good enough to go broke with.

Dream flop!!! You're in position and it's checked to you. No Free Cards. This is why you're playing this hand. Someone should have an Ace... or something on that flop. Bet it and see if you can get some action. If not, there was no money to be made here. If they're not calling on the flop, they're not going to call until they hit a hand that likely beats your set.

As played... bet 500-700 on the flop. Maybe nearer to 500 than 700. As an aside... the pair of 4s would have to be high to call 500 on this flop... so they fold and get out of your way... this avoids the bad beat you let get there for free. If they call 500... well, it's a cooler but you played the hand right. The QJ would probably fold too... which stinks but it happens.

As played... reraise all-in on the turn. You're probably still in the best position and you don't want to give anyone a cheap card... just pick this pot up right here and get on with everything. You'll be called by the 4-4... and it's a cooler... but oh well.

As played... just check the end. If you're going to play weak after the flop... don't change your mind at the end.

[ungarstu132]

I haven't read the replies from other people, yet, because I don't want them to taint my view.

I hate the pre-flop raise. You have an UTG limper and a caller already. You're not going to pick this pot up pre-flop with that raise... so you're going to have to hit your set. When you don't, you will be folding. Why put money into a pot you're likely going to have to get away from when it doesn't increase your chances of winning now.

Limp... let people in. The more people, the happier you'll be. If you hit your set, someone might have something good enough to go broke with.

Dream flop!!! You're in position and it's checked to you. No Free Cards. This is why you're playing this hand. Someone should have an Ace... or something on that flop. Bet it and see if you can get some action. If not, there was no money to be made here. If they're not calling on the flop, they're not going to call until they hit a hand that likely beats your set.

As played... bet 500-700 on the flop. Maybe nearer to 500 than 700. As an aside... the pair of 4s would have to be high to call 500 on this flop... so they fold and get out of your way... this avoids the bad beat you let get there for free. If they call 500... well, it's a cooler but you played the hand right. The QJ would probably fold too... which stinks but it happens.

As played... reraise all-in on the turn. You're probably still in the best position and you don't want to give anyone a cheap card... just pick this pot up right here and get on with everything. You'll be called by the 4-4... and it's a cooler... but oh well.

As played... just check the end. If you're going to play weak after the flop... don't change your mind at the end.

thanx, this is a great explaination, i have been reading about situations like this, and it appears the best thing to do would have bee to give a medium bet on the flop, and i would have taken the pot right there.

whats everybody elses opinions?

[ZZZZZZZZZ]

Your first mistake is you should not raise 33 preflop after limpers, and you should not be raising to 5x the big blind, both are wrong. With 33 it is safe to assume that if you are a thinking player then you will almost opnly continue if you flop a set, and you priced yourself out to do such. That being said, now that you raised and got your dream flop, there is no other move then leading a 2/3 pot bet at the flop. As you stated you think the opponets have high cards. Well if they have ak or aq they will most likely call or reraise the flop trying to go broke, and then you have them. If they have kq kj, random donk preflop call hands, you will not get more money no matter how you play it, even if they peel of a K or Q etc on the turn they can still see that it is not top pair and will most likely get scared and not put more moeny in. So there are no rewards of slowplaying here, but there is the risk that what did happen will happen so there is risk. In general slowplaying is almost always wrong in online tourneys unless you have very specific reads. Also the first step to improvment in to not call hands like this BAD BEATS, you played the hand wrong on every street, and suffered because of it. There is no hope of improving your game unless you acknowledge your mistakes and learn from them, and this hand is as far from a bad beat as possible. Good luck in the future, keep posting hands is the best way to learn.

PS - After writing this I relize I more or less just restaed frob23 statement, so +1 for frob23

[ZZZZZZZZZ]

you should not be raising to 5x the big blind

Had you actually had a hand that was rasie worthy after 2 limpers 5x is the correct number, I usually use the system 3bb +1 for each limped 4bb +1 per limper if the table is loose. What i menat is in another scenerio with no limpers 5x is usually too much to open raise.

[ZZZZZZZZZ]

One more reason the preflop bet is so wrong, other than pricing yourself out of set equity, is it sells the fact you are strong. Also once you raise preflop and then check the flop with the A on board it generally screams slowplay with a big A, or scared with kk qq etc, so people can see your slowplay coming from a mile away. Betting is great, becasue even if they all flop you just increase your stack by 30% without showdown, which is how you win tournamnets by picking up chips with out showing down and having to risk chips. When you hit a set you want people to think you are weak, and hence on a board like this get action from donks with a8, a9 etc. Once you raise the other limpers see you as strong and even though they called may not go broke with hands like aT. However is the limper has AT and you limp also he may think this AT must be good, because all better hands would raise preflop and not limp. You wnat tehm to think you are the donk with a rag and when you raise pre over limpers to a thinking player your range has now become incrdably easy to play against. Your general rule of thumb in these low stakes tournaments should be to limp your pocket pairs early and try to hit sets, the only time you should start raising with 33 is as a steal, and since it is a steal your cards are unimportant since you will fold to a reraise anyways. I generally in a tourny like this would limp all Pocxket Pairs 33-99 after limpers trying to hit a good flop, while commiting very little chips in a high reward low risk play. Also last comment is that with 2 broadway cards on the board and putting the people on high cards you need to bet to prevent them hitting gutshots for free, along with higher pairs hitting sets. Some people would call if you bet 400-500 on the flop with KQ (horrible, but you see it all the time). All of your plays are high risk low reward, and you are looking to do the opposite in tournaments.

[ungarstu132]

Had you actually had a hand that was rasie worthy after 2 limpers 5x is the correct number, I usually use the system 3bb +1 for each limped 4bb +1 per limper if the table is loose. What i menat is in another scenerio with no limpers 5x is usually too much to open raise.

yeah, i use the same strategy

its called the standard raise by David Sklansky

[ungarstu132]

can i have opinions on exactly how i should have played this hand?

thanx

[Latrocinium]

I understand your thinking. You've got trips on a rainbow board, and you're reading them on top pair or top pair with a straight or flush draw. Beauty at it's finest.
Not! lol

Someone could have been slow playing a monster pocket pair from upfront. If they are on a draw, you never want to give them a free card to make a better hand on you.

You should have bet the flop. Sklansky said it best. "As the size of the pot grows. It becomes less and less profitable to disguise your hand, and more profitable to just bet it out"

Meaning if you have a med strength hand, or the likes, and they have any possibility of drawing out. You should bet more, to keep thier pot odds down, and therfore make them make a mistake in calling.

A pot sized bet on the flop. Would have probably chased out the fours, and whatever other hand that was drawing. You might not get any callers, but a small pot is better than no pot, or worse yet a chunk of your stack.

Oh and after you've made it to the river on a hand like this. Sometimes it's better to check for free. Again you might not get a big pot, but you make sure you see thier cards. Which will give you a better read on that player/players for the next hands.

GL

[ungarstu132]

I understand your thinking. You've got trips on a rainbow board, and you're reading them on top pair or top pair with a straight or flush draw. Beauty at it's finest.
Not! lol

Someone could have been slow playing a monster pocket pair from upfront. If they are on a draw, you never want to give them a free card to make a better hand on you.

You should have bet the flop. Sklansky said it best. "As the size of the pot grows. It becomes less and less profitable to disguise your hand, and more profitable to just bet it out"

Meaning if you have a med strength hand, or the likes, and they have any possibility of drawing out. You should bet more, to keep thier pot odds down, and therfore make them make a mistake in calling.

A pot sized bet on the flop. Would have probably chased out the fours, and whatever other hand that was drawing. You might not get any callers, but a small pot is better than no pot, or worse yet a chunk of your stack.

Oh and after you've made it to the river on a hand like this. Sometimes it's better to check for free. Again you might not get a big pot, but you make sure you see thier cards. Which will give you a better read on that player/players for the next hands.

GL

yeah i completely understand your thinking, everytime i get a new response i learn a lot more,

thank you for this

id like to see other opinions !!