Analyzing a Bad Beat, what would you have done?

[ungarstu132]

PokerStars Game #: Tournament #, $11+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) Table '43186539 3' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Gotspeed1 (1710 in chips)
Seat 2: ME (1675 in chips)
Seat 3: cactuspear (2730 in chips)
Seat 4: TJ1971 (2185 in chips)
Seat 5: skynyrrd (1170 in chips)
Seat 6: yellowrim (1390 in chips)
Seat 7: susieq299 (1440 in chips)
Seat 8: Hans Teeuwen (1875 in chips)
Seat 9: Royalusher (765 in chips)
skynyrrd: posts small blind 25
yellowrim: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ME[3s 3d]
susieq299: calls 50
Hans Teeuwen: folds
Royalusher: folds
Gotspeed1: calls 50
ME: raises 200 to 250 (I decide here to make a standard raise because I want to eliminate all the bad hands such as Ax and Kx that I don’t want to hit the flop and beat me)
cactuspear: folds
TJ1971: folds
skynyrrd: folds
yellowrim: folds
susieq299: calls 200
Gotspeed1: calls 200 (he calls my raise here with 44, I guess he was feeling lucky because with a raise of 5 times the big blind u need to have a pocket pair over 99 or two big over cards because I was playing TAG (tight aggressive) so the gap for me was large)
*** FLOP *** [Ad Js 3c]
susieq299: checks
Gotspeed1: checks (here he checks his 44, probably what I would have done)ME: checks (here is where the BIG mistake was made on my part, I check my trips allowing him to have a chance to hit one of his two outs to beat me, I should have bet about 900 chips here and I would have won the pot)
*** TURN *** [Ad Js 3c] [4s] (and the 4 comes)
susieq299: bets 150
Gotspeed1: raises 250 to 400 (he re raises with his trip 4’s of course)ME: calls 400 (I simply flat call here assuming that I am ahead with my trip 3’s and I will slow play to get more money into the pot)
susieq299: calls 250
*** RIVER *** [Ad Js 3c 4s] [6s] (the river puts three spades on the board to possibly scare anybody in the pot)
susieq299: checks
Gotspeed1: checks (he checks his trip 4’s, I am sure those three spades on the board scared him)
ME: bets 600 (I make my bet here of 600 thinking I will win the pot, so I try to get more money in)
susieq299: calls 600
Gotspeed1: calls 600 (he acts scared and just flat calls with his trip 4’s on the river)
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ME: shows [3s 3d] (three of a kind, Threes)
susieq299: mucks hand
Gotspeed1: shows [4d 4c] (three of a kind, Fours) (I was astounded when I saw him show trip 4’s to beat my trip 3’s)
Gotspeed1 collected 3825 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3825 | Rake 0
Board [Ad Js 3c 4s 6s]
Seat 1: Gotspeed1 showed [4d 4c] and won (3825) with three of a kind, Fours
Seat 2: ME showed [3s 3d] and lost with three of a kind, Threes
Seat 3: cactuspear folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: TJ1971 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: skynyrrd (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: yellowrim (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: susieq299 mucked [Qs Jd]
Seat 8: Hans Teeuwen folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Royalusher folded before Flop (didn't bet)

This again was a case of me not being aggressive enough. I had multiple chances to get the pocket fours out of the pot, and I didn’t take advantage of those chances.

Pre flop all I had to do was make a raise to about 600 and the hand would have most likely been over right there. But if that didn’t work on the flop I could have pushed for about 1100 chips with my trip 3’s and he would have folded before he ever hit the trip 4’s. Just a little more aggression and I would have won the pot, and been in good position to win the sng.



What would you have done differently?
Or would you have played this the same way as i did?

[ungarstu132]

I have seen obviously that a bet on the flop would have been helpful, but what would you guys have done?

[ungarstu132]

Am i correct in thinking sombody that checked the flop would not have a pocket pair? and need runer runner to beat me, so i check?

[liladypokerpro]

Am i correct in thinking sombody that checked the flop would not have a pocket pair? and need runer runner to beat me, so i check?

Not always a good assumption hun....there is always the slow play to keep in mind. And especially in tournaments it is utilized quite often. If the other player put you on a hand less than a pair, he probably felt that his pair was good, and decided to take you up on the offer to see a free card since you checked. By checking, it allowed his pair to catch some help, leaving you high and dry.

[ZZZZZZZZZ]

Am i correct in thinking sombody that checked the flop would not have a pocket pair? and need runer runner to beat me, so i check?

No definatly not I would check with all Pockets 22-KK that have not hit sets, with KK QQ I am trying to keep the pot small so I can pick off a bluff later for not that many chips if I believe you don't have the A, but I check cause most likely raising over limpers you do have the A. 22 and 44-TT I check behgind to get the free card to hit that set, or I am basically just giving up and waiting for a better chance. So in conclusion all pocklet pairs should check.

[ungarstu132]

No definatly not I would check with all Pockets 22-KK that have not hit sets, with KK QQ I am trying to keep the pot small so I can pick off a bluff later for not that many chips if I believe you don't have the A, but I check cause most likely raising over limpers you do have the A. 22 and 44-TT I check behgind to get the free card to hit that set, or I am basically just giving up and waiting for a better chance. So in conclusion all pocklet pairs should check.

yes i agree, so i definatly shoulds have bet, about how much should i have bet on the flop?

[ZZZZZZZZZ]

The biggest mistake is the preflop raise, also you can not just say I am playing TAG and have it be true, seems like you are following standard inexperianced logic and trying to justify your play by explaining why the other guys is bad. If you were reasonable tight/smart would not raise with 33 there so you are not playing that tight. Also even the most passive players would bet that flop, so you are not that aggresive, that being said, you can not just say you are TAG and make it true, you have to actaully be playing TAG, and also you have to give someone credit enough to notice how you play which is liek 10% of the people. Also his line makes no sence at all because there are no hands he should be limp calling with there preflop in a solid startagy, he is not gettign 10-1 needed to call with 44 or other pockt pairs to hit a set. He shoudl not limp call big or medium strong hands there and then call, that makes no sence. The only way he does this is he is not a thinking player, and thus you can assume he does not notice you are playing "TAG". He plays the hand horrible too BTW, but that does not make it OK for you to play it bad. Both of you made mistakes preflop, then you made a mistake on the flop, then on the tirn both of you made mistakes again, your bet was way too small, his raise was way too small, you should have reraise again and got it all in with your set. You also think slowplaying will get more money in, but it won't, the way to get more money in the pot is top put it there yoruslef. Your argument is completely flawed by saying that not putting money in gets more money in, when you won't even put it in when you get the chance on the turn. Is this a big multil, or a SNG alos, the advice does not change, but this is much worse in a SNG than a MTT. Keep posting hands to get better, best of luck.

ALso never bet 900 on that flop, it is better than checking but not by much, you only get payed off by big hands. Rule of thump 2/3 pot and adjust from there based on reads, with the limp call I would put him on a middle pocket pari or a weak A A6-AT in which case they call a floip bet, which actually puts more money in the pot, and if they have a pair you can't win anyways they either hit a set, or fold, there are no more chips to be won by you.

[ungarstu132]

unfortunatly this was a sng, and i thank you very much for your responses, it has mad me think more, and realize a bunch of things i did wrong, that i thought were right

id also like to see other opinions, hopefully so i can get a lreger view of this situation

thank you everybody !!!

[ZZZZZZZZZ]

Post other quetsions you may have and I will answer them in a few hours, if you post other hands I will make a point to comment, my recomendation is to take one day where you would have played cards and read a poker book or soem articles instead. If you personal message me I can recomend some, I have read them all. Also just so you know I play about 2000 $20- $100 SNGS a month and have won many low stakes tournys on poker stars ( 3+R twice and 2AM $33 twice plus other final tables), party (1500 man $22 buy in) and full tilt (no wins, went deep in 750k gaurenteed last week though), just so you know my advice is not garbage. You are on your way to becoming a good player if you keep trying to learn and ask for advice. The most impostant thing is to think about hands you lose and always be learning. Good Luck, see you in the forums soon.

[ungarstu132]

Post other quetsions you may have and I will answer them in a few hours, if you post other hands I will make a point to comment, my recomendation is to take one day where you would have played cards and read a poker book or soem articles instead. If you personal message me I can recomend some, I have read them all. Also just so you know I play about 2000 $20- $100 SNGS a month and have won many low stakes tournys on poker stars ( 3+R twice and 2AM $33 twice plus other final tables), party (1500 man $22 buy in) and full tilt (no wins, went deep in 750k gaurenteed last week though), just so you know my advice is not garbage. You are on your way to becoming a good player if you keep trying to learn and ask for advice. The most impostant thing is to think about hands you lose and always be learning. Good Luck, see you in the forums soon.

i appriciate this very much, i consider myself a sit n go and mtt player, i DO play TAG

that hand was a while ago, but i still look back on it,

i have many hand hstories saved and i enjoy criticizing myself

i have read many books such s HOH 1 2 and 3

i have been trying to build a br on stars out of nothing, but the freerolls are quite ridiculous

i wish i could deposit, but my full time job situation isnt great, so i continue to try to win some freerolls.

ONE of my questions is:

what style would you say you play, and what cards do you play in what positions?

[ZZZZZZZZZ]

i appriciate this very much, i consider myself a sit n go and mtt player, i DO play TAG

that hand was a while ago, but i still look back on it,

i have many hand hstories saved and i enjoy criticizing myself

i have read many books such s HOH 1 2 and 3

i have been trying to build a br on stars out of nothing, but the freerolls are quite ridiculous

i wish i could deposit, but my full time job situation isnt great, so i continue to try to win some freerolls.

ONE of my questions is:

what style would you say you play, and what cards do you play in what positions?

I definatly play TAG and TAG is the only winning startagy you can play in SNG tournaments, in cash and multi there is room to play different, but not in SNGs, and anyone who says differnet is just wrong, this topic has been discussed milllions of times in other online forums. The most important point is he may not know you play TAG and based ont he line he took in this hand he appears to not be a thinking player, thus you can not use the fact that you are playing tag as something to consider, because he does not consider it. Basically if you are familer with multi level thing he is thinking on level 0 (only thinks about his own cards), and you are trying to think on level 2, but you can only think one level higher than your opponent. I can elaborate more on this topic if you liek just let me know. As far as startagy in a stars SNGS less <16 I am playing very few hands and waitign for very specific chances to make my move.

Level 1,2,3 I only play Pocket Pairs 22-TT and I limp if I am getting 10 to 1 implied, otherwise I fold on maybe shove if it is the higher end of the spectrum. I raise/reraise with jj qq kk AA and usually take it to felt unless I have a read, and take a note on the person if jj/qq isnt good against them, so i dont make the smae mistake twice. AA and KK you are trying to get it all in preflop every time, do not fold kk in SNGs. other than that i only play AK and AQs for other hands and I mix limping and raising dependign on position and table composition. I also run Poker tracker while I play so I have stats on all the players, which make it much easier to know how to play, liek if i see soemone raises only 5% pf and i have aq or even ako and they raise from earky position it is an easy fold, but if i see they raise 50% preflop i will def repop ak and maybe aq but not fold. Whern the blinds get big and you have less than 10 bb you either go all in or fold nothing else. Read about ICM and you will get play on the bubble/ near bubble, just type sng ICm into google, you should find a bunch of articles. SNGs are a robot game, teh best players in the world only return at 10-15% in the long run, so y iu need to play alot of games to really make money playing them. The most important thing is to get a stratagy and stick with it and after 200 games or so you can fine tune the stratagy. SNGs are alos high varriance games so you should keep 40 buy ins for the level you play fi you wnat no risk of going broke on bad luck.

[ungarstu132]

I definatly play TAG and TAG is the only winning startagy you can play in SNG tournaments, in cash and multi there is room to play different, but not in SNGs, and anyone who says differnet is just wrong, this topic has been discussed milllions of times in other online forums. The most important point is he may not know you play TAG and based ont he line he took in this hand he appears to not be a thinking player, thus you can not use the fact that you are playing tag as something to consider, because he does not consider it. Basically if you are familer with multi level thing he is thinking on level 0 (only thinks about his own cards), and you are trying to think on level 2, but you can only think one level higher than your opponent. I can elaborate more on this topic if you liek just let me know. As far as startagy in a stars SNGS less <16 I am playing very few hands and waitign for very specific chances to make my move.

Level 1,2,3 I only play Pocket Pairs 22-TT and I limp if I am getting 10 to 1 implied, otherwise I fold on maybe shove if it is the higher end of the spectrum. I raise/reraise with jj qq kk AA and usually take it to felt unless I have a read, and take a note on the person if jj/qq isnt good against them, so i dont make the smae mistake twice. AA and KK you are trying to get it all in preflop every time, do not fold kk in SNGs. other than that i only play AK and AQs for other hands and I mix limping and raising dependign on position and table composition. I also run Poker tracker while I play so I have stats on all the players, which make it much easier to know how to play, liek if i see soemone raises only 5% pf and i have aq or even ako and they raise from earky position it is an easy fold, but if i see they raise 50% preflop i will def repop ak and maybe aq but not fold. Whern the blinds get big and you have less than 10 bb you either go all in or fold nothing else. Read about ICM and you will get play on the bubble/ near bubble, just type sng ICm into google, you should find a bunch of articles. SNGs are a robot game, teh best players in the world only return at 10-15% in the long run, so y iu need to play alot of games to really make money playing them. The most important thing is to get a stratagy and stick with it and after 200 games or so you can fine tune the stratagy. SNGs are alos high varriance games so you should keep 40 buy ins for the level you play fi you wnat no risk of going broke on bad luck.

thanx i think this will be useful

[ungarstu132]

anybody else have some other opinions?

[Portuguese Hero]

What about the stop and go stradegy that was posted is that not a good stradegy in SNG's

[ungarstu132]

What about the stop and go stradegy that was posted is that not a good stradegy in SNG's

what do you mean by the stop and go strategy?

[irishpkr]

This involves: calling a raise when you're out of position, then shoving the flop regardless of what comes. I guess this would only be a viable strategy when the blinds get much bigger compared to stack sizes, so the shove isnt a massive overbet

[ungarstu132]

This involves: calling a raise when you're out of position, then shoving the flop regardless of what comes. I guess this would only be a viable strategy when the blinds get much bigger compared to stack sizes, so the shove isnt a massive overbet

id like to hear a lot more about this, does it work, or is it what bad poker players use?

[ungarstu132]

im looking, its also posible that i could have folded 33 pre flop,

what do you guys think?

FOLD?

[irishpkr]

wow stop talking about this hand, and no folding sets on a board like that.

[ungarstu132]

i meant to fold pre flop, before i made any raise...

im sorry, i joined this site to learn a little more with other people,

would you have folded pre flop?