MTT vs. Regular SnG vs Turbo SnG

[CubsDominate]

I was just reading over 123birds "5 min of luck" about his supposed "suckouts" and it got me thinking....

Obviously Cash games need a seperate strategy from tourneys, but do you guys think that a player should have a seperate strategy for Multi Table Tourney's, Regular Sit n go's, and Turbo Sit n Go's?


123bird was saying how he was "sucked out" when he went all in first hand with AK and lost to 66. This play just didn't make any sense to me. I would never think to gamble my whole stack with AK preflop on the first hand of a tourney. But lately I have been pretty busy and don't have time for a regular SnG so I've been playing turbo tourneys and also some Ultra Turbo tourneys. I find myself short stacked by the time the blinds go up because I've been waiting for a decent hand and have to push with a mediocre hand.

How do you guys change up your strategy?

[KayJay333]

I try not to change up my strategy too much, just survive, but I guess I typically don't play in Turbo tourney's. Everyone has their own style, whatever works best for you is what you should stick with

[st_ever]

My turbo sng strategy is definitely different. I tend to raise 5xbb when the blinds are small as you tend to get a lot of caller if you only 3x. Have a very tight raising range early on and loosen up as the blinds get bigger. Also you need to ahve a good push fold strategy for when the antes come in.

Reg SNG's i just play very tight. I have been playing for 10 - 15mins and not played a hand. Sometimes i blind out to 1000 chips(1500 start). This is at the lowere levelswhere ppl just don't notice you haven't played ahand so when you raise utg you have the goods. I can imagine at the higheer levels you have to mix it up.

Mtt's you have a bit more maneoverability. You can loosen up you're open raising range a bit and when the blinds are small you can come into a lot more pots with more speculative hands.

[CubsDominate]

Now that I think about it a better question is not only how do you change up strategy for MTT/Regular/Turbo SnG's, but also how do you change up your strategy for Bounty/Knockout Tournaments, and for Rebuy Tourney's.

I always seem to do bad in Bounty Tourneys because I play so tight and never knock people out, I just survive.

[liladypokerpro]

I avoid turbo and ultra turbo games because it opens up a whole new can of worms. People get desperate and start playing all kinds of hands, and a tight player cannot profit from these games, as you simply do not have time to wait for a monster...not to mention, with so many hands in play, there's no guarantee your monster will hold up. I think these types of games are more geared toward the loose/aggressive players. If this is your style, then you should do well. If you play tight/aggressive, you should probably beware of these types of tournaments.

[JokerStarsSucks]

I play every different kind of tourney and don't usually alter my play up very much, I think I need to change that

[Vito_Nuccio]

Turbo tourneys are just a way for the cardroom to make money faster. 10 minute blinds are fast enough as normal online games are basically turbo to begin with. Once you get to 5 minutes or even superturbo (2 minute blinds, crazy), it is not poker anymore. It is hope you get a hand in the first few minutes or pick your time to throw your chips in, spin the wheel and see if it stops on you. If a single table tourney is done in 15-30 minutes, it is not a good representation of a true poker game. What do you get to see, 10-20 hands? Luck plays a more prominent factor if there are less decisions to be made.

Later,

[ZZZZZZZZZ]

Turbo SNGs are one of the most profitable games on the internet if you are good at math. The strategy is to play tight at the beginning, and then make mathematically correct push/fold decisions later on using ICM always. Any pro SNG player will only play the turbo, they provide a lower ROI, but a higher hourly rate. I will play 12-16 turbo at a time and return on investment at 5-10%, but in a 5 hour time frame I can play 100-150 SNG, thus making a couple hundred dollars in this time frame. Most peopel can not handle the turbos, because based on assigned calling ranges to others it is correct to push alot of random cards, and uninformed people think oh he is pushing garbage, when actually I am playing the numbers. Also in turbo SNGs it is very easy to make small mistakes, but hard to make large mistakes, so if you are not an honest student of the game, who goes back and rewatches his/her SNGs later to find mistakles, while studying and then adjusts, you will have a very tough time beating turbos and will most likely fail, but be able to feel like it is just bad luck since all of your moves that were -$EV are only by like $.10 or so, so they are easy to mis, if you would rather bkame your misfortune on luck rather than incorrect moves. The short answer is of course you use different stratagys for differnt types of games, that is like asking do you use a diffferent startagy for a marathon and for a sprint, the answer is that simple, if you do not use a different startagy for every different type of game you play, or at least consider it and make an informed decision you are over simplifying one of the most complicated games there is.

[ZZZZZZZZZ]

Turbo tourneys are just a way for the cardroom to make money faster. 10 minute blinds are fast enough as normal online games are basically turbo to begin with. Once you get to 5 minutes or even superturbo (2 minute blinds, crazy), it is not poker anymore. It is hope you get a hand in the first few minutes or pick your time to throw your chips in, spin the wheel and see if it stops on you. If a single table tourney is done in 15-30 minutes, it is not a good representation of a true poker game. What do you get to see, 10-20 hands? Luck plays a more prominent factor if there are less decisions to be made.

Later,

Luck plays a bigger role, but that does not mean like any other game a smart person can still develop a better strategy than the average online idiot and profit. The idea that some poker is "Real" and some isn't is a BS concept that was defiantly made up concept by someone who wasn't good at one type of poker so he/she called it not "real". Some games require more thinking/adjustments during the game to win like a deep stack cash game, some require a better strategy off that start and being able to follow a system and not make mistakes like a turbo SNG. This is nothing like spinning a luck wheel, it is more like blackjack, but you are the house. You have a strategy that you always follow, making correct mathematical moves and in the end after 1000s of SNGs you know you will win because that is how the numbers work. Let me make one thing clear the money made at turbo SNGs is real, the things you buy with it are real, so the poker is real. Saying something is not real is a standard cop out a losing player would make, because he is not able to admit he is bad at something, needs to study and improve, so he would rather blame it on luck.

[CubsDominate]

I appreciate the input ZZZZZ but I just had a few questions. Basically I don't feel profitable at the turbo tables at all but they're nice when you don't have time to play a regular tournament. I feel like I'm not successful but am not sure if I'm playing too tight or too loose or what. In a 10 person tournament I always finish in the top five but many times out of the money. ZZZZZ what is your strategy for turbo's?

You said you play 10-15 at I time I think? I usually play 4 at a time. Do you have like a double screen on your comp? Without revealing your whole strategy I just wanted to know the basics of your thought process?

[ZZZZZZZZZ]

I appreciate the input ZZZZZ but I just had a few questions. Basically I don't feel profitable at the turbo tables at all but they're nice when you don't have time to play a regular tournament. I feel like I'm not successful but am not sure if I'm playing too tight or too loose or what. In a 10 person tournament I always finish in the top five but many times out of the money. ZZZZZ what is your strategy for turbo's?

You said you play 10-15 at I time I think? I usually play 4 at a time. Do you have like a double screen on your comp? Without revealing your whole strategy I just wanted to know the basics of your thought process?

Start by looking up ICM (Independent chip model) and familiarize yourself with s-c rankings of hands. I have no problem sharing my whole strategy it is not really a secret. I will write a much more detailed response tomorrow, and answer any questions you have.

[KayJay333]

my understanding of the ICM model is only for when you are on the bubble in a tourney. Is that correct? Basically a way of deciding whether or not you should call an all in on the bubble based on other peoples chip stacks?

I think most people employ a similar strategy without even knowing it. I mean you aren't going to call an all in for 3000 chips when you have 3500 chips and another person has less than 1000 chips. I'm curious how do you you play "12-16" turbo's at a time? doesn't it get ridiculous when you are heads up against someone at multiple tables?

[123bird]

I was just reading over 123birds "5 min of luck" about his supposed "suckouts" and it got me thinking....

Obviously Cash games need a seperate strategy from tourneys, but do you guys think that a player should have a seperate strategy for Multi Table Tourney's, Regular Sit n go's, and Turbo Sit n Go's?


123bird was saying how he was "sucked out" when he went all in first hand with AK and lost to 66. This play just didn't make any sense to me. I would never think to gamble my whole stack with AK preflop on the first hand of a tourney. But lately I have been pretty busy and don't have time for a regular SnG so I've been playing turbo tourneys and also some Ultra Turbo tourneys. I find myself short stacked by the time the blinds go up because I've been waiting for a decent hand and have to push with a mediocre hand.

How do you guys change up your strategy?

no supposed about it

You're probably right i shouldn't have called the all in first hand with AK but Fuck it I was/am sick & tired of morons going all in (with crap) first hand & getting away with it.
I like the $3.30 KO turbo's because I'm an impatient idiot & there pretty much all over in 1-2 hours max
I think if your just playing online like i am for fun & not trying to make poker your living or win big money,the $3.30 KO turbo sng's are the go.If you can negotiate your way thru the first couple of blinds they are usually pretty good & fast games.

[CubsDominate]

123Bird, I wasn't degrading your play at all. I was legitimately asking whether or not that is a common play in Knockout Tournaments. As a poker player I am usually a lot more profitable at MTT's and long Sit n Go's and I usually suck at KO tourneys. That's why I was asking people. Although i would never risk my whole stack on AK in the first hand of a multi table tourney, is this a common/smart play in a KO type tourney?

Most of my problems with KO/rebuy tourney's are that I play so tight that by the time the bubble is coming up I'm usually low or medium stack and have only knocked out a player or two if that. Do you get what I'm saying now?

[123bird]

123Bird, I wasn't degrading your play at all. I was legitimately asking whether or not that is a common play in Knockout Tournaments. As a poker player I am usually a lot more profitable at MTT's and long Sit n Go's and I usually suck at KO tourneys. That's why I was asking people. Although i would never risk my whole stack on AK in the first hand of a multi table tourney, is this a common/smart play in a KO type tourney?

Most of my problems with KO/rebuy tourney's are that I play so tight that by the time the bubble is coming up I'm usually low or medium stack and have only knocked out a player or two if that. Do you get what I'm saying now?

Hey buddy its all good I'm sorry if i gave you the impression i was having a go at you.I'm like you just trying to get info so i can improve my play

[PokerPlayerGuy123]

I think you definitely have to greatly alter your play for any different type of tournament, just like you should alter your play by your table position. If I'm under the gun I don't even blink befor tossing a hand like 7 8 suited or pocket 3's. But on the button I'll limp in with these hands since I know I'll have position and be able to steal a pot if I miss the flop. I use the same strategy when it comes to tourneys.

-For Multi Table tourneys and non-turbo Sit n Go's it doesn't make sense to risk a lot of chips on bad hands just to try to be big stack early. It pays off to survive in those tourneys, so I play very tight.

-But when it comes to Turbo tourney's and KO tourneys I definitely open up my hand selection and play more aggressively. I'll take an early big risk all in if I have a good read on a guy. the only reason I do this is because you always get those idiots in Turbo or KO tourney's that will go all in first hand with pocket 5's or KQ just because they feel like it. I always keep notes on a player whenever I see this just in case I happen to play them again.

Hope this answers your question

[ZZZZZZZZZ]

-But when it comes to Turbo tourney's and KO tourneys I definitely open up my hand selection and play more aggressively. I'll take an early big risk all in if I have a good read on a guy. the only reason I do this is because you always get those idiots in Turbo or KO tourney's that will go all in first hand with pocket 5's or KQ just because they feel like it. I always keep notes on a player whenever I see this just in case I happen to play them again.

Hope this answers your question

Good point for KO tournys, but does not apply to turbos, you should play turbos as tight as regulars early on, and when you get to higher stakes, all the better players flock to the turbos because you can have a much higher hourly rate playing them. The taking notes for turbos is very important, against a random I start by being willing to felt JJ QQ KK and AA preflop, and then once I have stats on the person and have taken a not I will adjust to fold JJ and QQ to rerasie if I know youy know what is going on. I started to write out my whole stratagy to share with this board, over 20k SNGs 5-10% ROI playing 9-16 tables at once, but I am during exams at university and keep putting it off (done Thursday), this weekend I will make a few videos of me playing along with a couple page stratagy article and post it on my website.

my understanding of the ICM model is only for when you are on the bubble in a tourney. Is that correct? Basically a way of deciding whether or not you should call an all in on the bubble based on other peoples chip stacks?

I think most people employ a similar strategy without even knowing it. I mean you aren't going to call an all in for 3000 chips when you have 3500 chips and another person has less than 1000 chips. I'm curious how do you you play "12-16" turbo's at a time? doesn't it get ridiculous when you are heads up against someone at multiple tables?

ICM applies whether youa re on the bubble or not, just harder to calculate the more people that are left, with turbos since the possible ROI is lower it comes down to much harder decisions where you need to know ICM better. It also applies to pushing and knowing what others should call you with, and when they should fold, so you need to push into small stacks with very marginal hands a lot, if you know they should not call by ICM. I play 12 tables mostly and that is fairly easy on a 32" HD monitor, (two smaller monitors would be better wuth a 2 output graphics cards) and you need a very high understanding of what is the right move and a system, you can not think on the spot much. Also you will need to have an ICM calculator and review your SNGS after, I will play liek 100 SNGs and then replay them all in a replayer and see where my mistakes are using SNGwizard, so next time I do nto make the same mixtakes. You will also need to purchase FTS (full tilt shortcuts) which helps alot. Just work your way up, I started with 4 then 6, then 9, and now 12, I have played 16 during SNG madness, but not at stakes higher than 11$. Also Variance sucks so I would keep at least 50 buyin bankroll for turbo SNGs. I will write more on friday after my last exam. Hope this helps people.

[ZZZZZZZZZ]

Also if anyone wants to send me a hand history of them playign a SNG and have me make a video of me reviewing there play, i will do that Friday, send it to the email
zzzzzzzzzzzzzz3@hotmail.com (14z) or PM me. I hope someone sends me one, cause it is much funner to see others moves.

[AugieVikes]

jeeze that's a lot of Z's haha. How would you even go about recording a video of playing poker? do you have to buy software or something?

[liladypokerpro]

Recording a video of playing poker? That is an interesting concept...I'm interested to hear how this is possible myself.