PLO Hand *Need Help*

[st_ever]

FullTiltPoker Game #6135807241: Table Long (heads up) - $0.25/$0.50 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 15:41:00 ET - 2008/04/22
Seat 1: teachme11 ($28.60)
Seat 2: TheNutsIHave ($32.80)
TheNutsIHave posts the small blind of $0.25
teachme11 posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheNutsIHave [9d 9h 8c 6d]
TheNutsIHave raises to $1.50
teachme11 raises to $4.50
TheNutsIHave calls $3
*** FLOP *** [7d Ts Td]
teachme11 checks
TheNutsIHave bets $7
teachme11 calls $7
*** TURN *** [7d Ts Td] [4h]
teachme11 checks

Right what would you do in this situation?

I will post rest of hand if there is any interest.

[liladypokerpro]

In all honesty I wouldn't have even gotten myself into this situation with that hand. If you were able to use all 4 of your hole cards you'd have a great hand, but you can't, so you don't. Since I wouldn't have put myself in the position shown above, I couldn't rightly say what I'd do because it's a pretty easy folder. (just mo)

[st_ever]

I see what you are saying but this is heads up so you have to loosen up your raising/calling range. It is a loose call to a re raise but you have to include this in your range imo to be profitable heads up player. Plus i had position so i also think it is very -EV to fold this hand in this situation.

also I should have said in the op but this guy was quite loose, we'd been playing for a long time and i had been geting the better of him overall.

[liladypokerpro]

Ahhhhhh now it makes more sense. Hmmm...well if you've gotten this deep into it, and the guy is as loose as you say, you really gotta consider the fact that he might very well have you beat. Considering the fact that he re-raised your initial raise, you've got to figure he's quite possibly got a bigger pair than yours. That would be my thought anyway....and if so, then it's likely he could've caught a set, or perhaps a full house. If he hit quads, which isn't unlikely in Omaha, then you'd really be hurt. In any case with that board, I wouldn't put too much value on your hole pair against a loose/ aggressive player...and chasing the straight for that price tag wouldn't really be in my book of options. Again, just MO. Take it with a grain of salt

[st_ever]

Well are you saying you would check the flop and see what comes?

My way of looking at it was i had a flush draw albeit a low one

2 outs to a full house

8 outs to a straight

So i had roughly 16 outs! (Probably wrong doing this while playing!!)

His re raise since heads up made for a very wide range. Definitely imo 4 connected cards. Possibly big pair AAxx, KKxx but really could be anything.

He had check folded a lot of flops also.

Sorry i am remembering more information as i write the replies!!

[liladypokerpro]

LOL it's quite alright hun, remember away Omaha is tricky. I had to learn this the hard way, but have become very good at Omaha after a LOT of reading and practice. Even though you can still only use two of the four cards, there are still many more hand possibilities available than in a regular HE game, because of the four cards, you can choose which combination of two to make your hand. I hope this is making sense. I tend to get my thoughts jumbled when trying to explain my thinking LOL.

In this case, since you've got so much invested already, it would probably be in your best interest to play it out, and hope one of your outs hits on the river, or that the other guy has no clue what he's doing. But save the hand and read over it later and compare it with some reading materials to see what went wrong (if anything) or what went right and try to incorporate what you learn into the next time you play.

The problem I was referring to earlier is, once you called his re-raise, you've automatically opened yourself up to being vulnerable to some seriously tough decisions. Especially with the board you are facing. Omaha is one of those games you just really have to study and practice with, and even then sometimes your HE skills will get mixed up in it and cause you to play hands that a seasoned Omaha player wouldn't dream of. It's really just a matter of practice makes as close to perfect as you can get LOL

[AnArkhos]

Usually in HU I usually bet on PF with anything double suited, if its a premium rundown or a big pair, I tend to bet pot or minraise if someone has bet into me PF

Boublesuited aces or double paired aces I tendo raise big for the immense set value.

In your situation the villain is propably on a draw with either your cards missing, or/and one flushcard too.

If his hand was a medium rundown, I'd say he has that T there too.

You shouldn't have bet at all on the flop there.

Now u have put yourself in a situation where u either have to commit and go allin regardless of the turn card

A check or a much smaller bet just to pump up the value of the hand on flop would be a good play since u are on draw and (in my case ready to fold on turn if nothing hits) niot in a situation to bet alot.

The PF raise tells me that he has a decent hand most likely and propably has more nut outs than u do.(HU decent, mind u..)

By doing this u get a free card.

Your hand is quite dead so I suggest u wouldn't put any more money into it.

On turn its either allin or check-fold

So. I hope I can help

[st_ever]

By saying you think my hand is dead do you think that a straight either way will not be good enough or the even the 9 for the full house?
I can see that the flush may not be good if it hits.

But looking at the hand now maybe a check onthe flop is the beat thing.

In the hand in question I bet pot and he flat called.

[ungarstu132]

By saying you think my hand is dead do you think that a straight either way will not be good enough or the even the 9 for the full house?
I can see that the flush may not be good if it hits.

But looking at the hand now maybe a check onthe flop is the beat thing.

In the hand in question I bet pot and he flat called.

yeah, i agree that a check on the flop was most likely the correct play.

[liladypokerpro]

Now u have put yourself in a situation where u either have to commit and go allin regardless of the turn card


Your hand is quite dead so I suggest u wouldn't put any more money into it.

On turn its either allin or check-fold

So. I hope I can help

Thanks AnArkhos that is what I was trying to get out among all my rambling LOL

[AnArkhos]

Yes indeed check would have been a correct play. That way u get a free card and if in chance u improve ur hand, u can really start blasting away.

The real trick in PL omaha HU is to get value out of the hands u are absolutely dominating.

2 things I would have done differently in HU.

Firstly:
PF raise with mid pocket paired hand is not necessarily a correct play. The other cards make it a playable hand so the selection is not bad and the 9 has a real set value (in HU)

Secondly:
The flop is a horrific one, as your pocket is totally beaten by the flop in itself.

Flop would be a clear check-call (if u wouldn't had raised PF, u'd be looking at only around $1,25 sized pot bet to be called) so you could go after the flushdraw with a decent expected value.

In HU omaha the trick is to get ur opponent to call your nuthands as they think u are bluffing anyway. At least in my opinion.. Hands are temporary stuff which should be discarded as they die and play with the new one..

I hope u won the pot but I really doubt it as the villain seems to be packing a hand that is worth reraising your pot bet. (any higher rundown would have a T in it and any overpair pockets dominate your 9's. The only really playable thing would be that flushdraw and that would give u percentages around 16%-17% to hit it on the river..

And to make it clear, if it wasn't already:

I'm not saying that was a bad play, just a bit too aggressive and the flop killed it most likely. AND the reads on the villains normal betting habits could make this change drastically, as some players tend to bet into u every time they sense weakness (-> you check to them) and PF raise or even reraise any bets u make.

So this was just an analysis of how I saw the situation there..

[st_ever]

I was very aggressive but in HU Plo at these levels most players dont handle agggression very well. From my understanding of what i've read and videos i have watched you are best to get your money in with wraps and flush draws or preferably a combination of both, which is what i felt i had in this case.

Back to the hand. The 10 for me was in his range but as soon as i bet pot on flop he would aput me all in if he had a 10. Now i put him on a straight draw or a big pair + flush draw and with me holding most of his outs i felt i could push him off if the turn bricked out. When he called the turn bet i was expecting to be dominated and was very surprised to see what he was holding.

FullTiltPoker Game #6135807241: Table Long (heads up) - $0.25/$0.50 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 15:41:00 ET - 2008/04/22
Seat 1: teachme11 ($28.60)
Seat 2: TheNutsIHave ($32.80)
TheNutsIHave posts the small blind of $0.25
teachme11 posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheNutsIHave [9d 9h 8c 6d]
TheNutsIHave raises to $1.50
teachme11 raises to $4.50
TheNutsIHave calls $3
*** FLOP *** [7d Ts Td]
teachme11 checks
TheNutsIHave bets $7
teachme11 calls $7
*** TURN *** [7d Ts Td] [4h]
teachme11 checks
TheNutsIHave bets $21.30, and is all in
teachme11 calls $17.10, and is all in
TheNutsIHave shows [9d 9h 8c 6d]
teachme11 shows [Js 4s 9c Jc]
Uncalled bet of $4.20 returned to TheNutsIHave
*** RIVER *** [7d Ts Td 4h] [7s]
TheNutsIHave shows two pair, Tens and Nines
teachme11 shows two pair, Jacks and Tens
teachme11 wins the pot ($56.70) with two pair, Jacks and Tens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $57.20 | Rake $0.50
Board: [7d Ts Td 4h 7s]
Seat 1: teachme11 (big blind) showed [Js 4s 9c Jc] and won ($56.70) with two pair, Jacks and Tens
Seat 2: TheNutsIHave (small blind) showed [9d 9h 8c 6d] and lost with two pair, Tens and Nines

[AnArkhos]

Yes, you are right about the hand selection, as the hands that have the most options in them are the statistical winners. Double suited rundowns for example, I would say to be the best HU hands.

In case of a situation where your opponent has aces and is clearly going to push everything in PF, you should either fold, or have any four cards, as long as they are not paired. [367J] is a good example of a HU ace cracking hand. On flop, if u have hit one of them, u can go allin to hope for another hit, unless an ace has hit the table.

My favourite ace cracking hand in any table is [QJT9] double suited. I would go allin in a heartbeat with this, if I knew the other had dry aces, even though it's a slight underdog PF.

GL on your future games and if I can assist with similar trouble, I will. Hope others can and will too, as I am not the best omaha player in here for sure.

[st_ever]

Thanks for the replies everybody. I am really working on my omaha game recently and have got quite a nice profit from these heads up games.

I feel we need more omaha talk on rakeback so if you have any interesting hands for discussion you should post them.

[AnArkhos]

I have posted with almost no commentary. Thats why I havent posted them for a while.

[liladypokerpro]

I have posted with almost no commentary. Thats why I havent posted them for a while.

Do you mean in this thread or a thread of your own?? I just see no need to comment on your posts because they are usually right on target LOL Should take it as a compliment I suppose

[st_ever]

Arkhos, Even discussing with one player is better than none so if you post omaha HH i will be very glad to answer.
I need to go through my HH and pick out some hands to discuss cause i know i have a few. I logged ~1000 hands in the past 2 days so it may take a couple of days!!

[AnArkhos]

Do you mean in this thread or a thread of your own?? I just see no need to comment on your posts because they are usually right on target LOL Should take it as a compliment I suppose

Never thought of it that way..

Thank you.


I meant my threads btw.. Difficult hands that I posted.

I can post some here if u want to talk about them. I know I do.

[slick7545]

I would actually just check my friend. Nuts doesn't have a strong hand and i have a feeling that teachme could have a potential QQ,KK,AA in his hand and/or otherwise have a 10 in his hand. it could cost you to check but it could cost you even more to just raise and put more chips into the pot any further... thats only in my opinion though...