Folding KK preflop in NL Hold'em

[calvinzorr]

Hi guys, I had a debate with my friend a while ago if its ever acceptable to fold KK preflop in NL hold'em (cash, mtt, sng, heads up, ect). What sparked this debate was that I folded KK preflop in a 100NL cash game, and almost folded again in another 50NL cash game (he had Aces ofcouse).

His argument was "I've already explained mathematically that KK is a very profitable hand in the long run regardless of what the opponent(s) has and regardless of the outcome of the hands where you have KK. Just a personal comment that I want to get off my chest though: you are way too presumptive about how someone you've never even railed first-hand thinks when it comes to poker.

The only situation that I can think of where folding KK is actually good is deep in a huge tourney where you've already played hundreds upon hundreds of hands to get where you're at. If your opponent shoves all-in preflop, and you really feel strongly that their holding is AA, and folding means you can go up a placing or two in a short matter of time, which means you multiply your buy-in that much more, then I'd say it's good for the sake of tourney profit.

It's kind of like middle set or even bottom set -- if you do get away from it in a situation where only one or two types of hands are ahead, then you're an idiot."

In a cash game, KK is putting all the chips in when facing aggression from AA every time, unless the player is weak."

My argument basically was you gotta go with your gut feeling, and if you feel your opponent has Aces, then lay down the 2nd best hand. Poker isnt just about the right play and +EV in the longrun, its situational, and in a situation where you think you're beat, fold your hand.

Anyways.... I think Dan Harrington said never fold KK pre flop, and if you're agaisnt Aces, you can suck out on them? Another intresting fact: 9 handed, when you are dealt KK, there is a 3.6% chance somebody else has Aces. So its not as rare as some of you might think.

Your thoughts people?

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=_ZUFnzpSNXg]YouTube - Crazy Poker Pocket Pairs![/ame]

[calvinzorr]

Btw my friend said poeple who thinks the KK fold in the video is a great fold are idiots because the guy made an unorthodox play...

[Jonathank]

i once saw AA AA KK QQ all in pre flop

of course QQ flopped a set and won.

Love seeing that guy who folded KK in that video squirm in his seat.

[irishpkr]

I don't care that this guy folded KK on TV, if you're playing online, folding kings preflop(UNLESS YOU HAVE A VERY PARTICULAR READ ON YOUR OPPONENT) is like, terrible. I'll only comment on $25NL and $50NL cash games, as thats my thing, but I've seen people go crazy, 4betting with hands like A5s preflop, calling an allin. So not only will you opponent sometimes have trash, theres also all the QQ, JJ, AK hands that he can have too. Also generally when the time comes when you might consider folding, you're probably getting insanely good odds to call, so its -EV to fold

[iceveins0901]

The only way I would fold them, which I would do very rarely, is fold KK preflop deep in a satellite when I have a good chip stack.

[allthatremains]

The only way I would fold them, which I would do very rarely, is fold KK preflop deep in a satellite when I have a good chip stack.

+1

But I admit. I am not good enough to read AA on anyone confidently.

[iceveins0901]

+1

But I admit. I am not good enough to read AA on anyone confidently.

i agree, it would have to be very rarely, there are even times where i wouldnt even think about folding and then after the hand, win or lose, realizing i had a big enough stack before to just fold. oops!

[calvinzorr]

I don't care that this guy folded KK on TV, if you're playing online, folding kings preflop(UNLESS YOU HAVE A VERY PARTICULAR READ ON YOUR OPPONENT) is like, terrible. I'll only comment on $25NL and $50NL cash games, as thats my thing, but I've seen people go crazy, 4betting with hands like A5s preflop, calling an allin. So not only will you opponent sometimes have trash, theres also all the QQ, JJ, AK hands that he can have too. Also generally when the time comes when you might consider folding, you're probably getting insanely good odds to call, so its -EV to fold

Wow I wish I was at some of your tables. In the hand where I did fold KK preflop, I was playing 100NL, got KK utg, made standard raise to $3.50, and some dude in mp pushed all in for $150. My stack was about $100. I decided to fold because I rather lose $3.50 than my whole stack and I couldnt think of any hands that I could beat. I told him I had KK and he showed his Aces. On another hand, I got 4 bet all in by vilian when I had KK, and I checked him up on poker edge. He was a tight shark. I thought he was holding the rockets, but I was more pot commited on that hand so I called and indeed, he had the Aces.

In 50NL, I agree there is alot of retarded players making horrible plays with Ax or mid pp ect, but I still find generally most people know what they're doing.

[calvinzorr]

The only way I would fold them, which I would do very rarely, is fold KK preflop deep in a satellite when I have a good chip stack.

That would be an easy fold for me. Near the bubble of satelite, with a healthy chip stack. If I was basically guarenteed ITM, I'd fold all hands.

[yodals]

I couldn't let KK get away pre-flop, it wins more times than it loses. For me AA seems to lose more - lol.

Love AK though!

[calvinzorr]

I couldn't let KK get away pre-flop, it wins more times than it loses. For me AA seems to lose more - lol.

Love AK though!

LOL so true!

[gorden71]

For me it depends how many people are in the hand and what point you are at in the tourney. A lot of players in the hand(4 or more) I would be more inclined to fold them, 3 or less Im playng them. Also early in the tourney when everyone is trying to gain chips overbetting bad hands, Ill play them then too.

[iceveins0901]

Oh, I am a liar....

This was on 5/15/08, literally right after I said I wouldn't fold em ever, enjoy...

Full Tilt Poker Rakeback" onclick="replacer_hook(92)" target="_blank" href="http://www.rakeback.com/full-tilt-poker/">Full Tilt Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BTN: $38.20
SB: $91.80
BB: $126.40
UTG: $79
Hero (UTG+1): $94.90
MP1: $199.30
MP2: $28.10
CO: $103.90

Pre-Flop: K K dealt to Hero (UTG+1)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $3.50, MP1 raises to $9, 2 folds, BTN raises to $14.50, 2 folds, Hero calls $11, MP1 raises to $38, BTN raises to $38.20 and is All-In, Hero folds, MP1 calls $0.20

Flop: ($92.40) 6 8 T (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($92.40) 3 (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($92.40) 3 (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $92.40 Pot ($3 Rake)
BTN showed A A (two pair, Aces and Threes) and WON $44.70 (+$6.50 NET)
MP1 showed A A (two pair, Aces and Threes) and WON $44.70 (+$6.50 NET)

Well, I still did pick yes and yes in the poll, and I suppose this is proof

[stoffmakers]

very interesting ice veins. when i initially looked at the question, i thought in the context of folding KK vs 1 opponent. but against 2, its a whole diff story, nice fold.

[openender]

Well most of u are at stage 1 : What do I have? KK too strong to fold
Some are at stage 2: What does s/he have? Is it AA/AK/QQ/99/TJs etc and can I beat it?
Welcome to Stage 3: WHAT DOES S/HE THINK I HAVE? Does s/he know its KK? Does s/he think s/he can bluff me? Whats my table image? What has s/he seen me raise with? etc etc

KK is easy to lay down, in cash and tournys, ITS ONE PAIR, and this is pre flop. To lay down on a non scary flop, much harder but possible.

If Phil Helmuth can lay down KK pre flop, (surely ur friend has heard of him), then its good enough for me.

Ask ur friend this, ur in the WSOP main event $10k buy in, ur on the big blind 1st hand. U pick up AA, utg goes All in followed by EVERY OTHER player at the table including litttle blind. Do you call? You have the best starting hand preflop guaranteed, maybe another AA out there.

If ur friend calls, he cant play poker, just pre flop shove, which means you want him at ur table. (sounds like u have him over a barrel anyway tbh, u knw when hes strong and he overplays his hands) If he folds then he can lay down AA so whats the prob with KK?

I sometimes find it better not to argue btw, just store the info about what they think is the right thing to do, and let them think u think the same.

[openender]

and if YOU think ur behind, why put ur money in bad? unless its limit, on the river, and u were winning on the turn.

[nodelay69]

Ok I have folded kk preflop ..It was the first hand in the game and I like to see how things go someone in front of me pushed all in and there was one caller already ..There is no way I would push all in preflop so early .I have also folded aa in the same way ..call me dumb but I have a lot of money on line buy playing the way i do..

[gamer4life27]

It may be acceptable to fold KK pre flop in some deep stack poker, but with every move comes some down falls. Now, lets look at both of your oppinions.

He is comming from a gamblers stand point, where he is going to go with the majority best hand most of the time and is not going to lose most of the time. He is going to run into AA a few times, but he is willing to take the risk.

You on the other hand, are an instinct person. You go off your gut feeling more than yoru read the person. This can get you into a lot of trouble. I know because I know a good friend who plays like this. She is an extremly good player, but she doesn't know how to read the person that to read her feelings. She will often lay down the best hand if someone shoves, and she rarely bluffs unless she sences weakness (which is rare from a gut player). Laying down KK pre flop is ok some of the times, but think about it. If the probability of getting pocket aces is 216:1, and your laying down KK pre flop more times that that (meaning laying it down more than once out of 216 times), then your laying it down too much.

So all in all, you are both right. The key to playing KK is to have a read on your opponent, but not lay it down as soon as you think he has AA. Going off of your gut and reading the person are two different things, and you have to realize that. They way you are playing, leaves you no room for error, and forces you to lay down the best hand most of the time when you think your beat. Thats not what poker is about. Sometimes you have to go up against AA here and there and see if you come out on top or not.

So laying down KK pre flop is ok some of the time when you think he has AA, but to lay it down pre flop too much is just asking for trouble.