KK after this flop: What would you do here?

Thread: KK after this flop: What would you do here?

Tags:
  1. emoneypitt's Avatar

    emoneypitt said:

    Default KK after this flop: What would you do here?

    I was playing some 6-handed $50 NL tonight when this situation came up: I get dealt KK on BB. The guy to my left (Seat 4) was first to act and calls in with $0.50. Second to act pot raises to $2.25. Guy to my right (Seat 2) was horrible player who was just getting lucky a lot. He calls the initial raise.. I then raise 4x to $9.00 hoping for just one call to see the flop. To my horror, all 3 other people just flat call and there is a big pot with the flop coming. So 254 flops with no flush draw. Donk to my right checks and now it's now my turn. I realized that someone could have AA here but with the way the table had been playing, I decided just to go for it and push. Here's what happened.........

    Full Tilt Poker Rakeback" onclick="replacer_hook(92)" target="_blank" href="http://www.rakeback.com/full-tilt-poker/">Full Tilt Poker Game #6433238845: Table Pagosa (6 max) - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:41:46 ET - 2008/05/15
    Seat 1: PeelaHundo ($56.20)
    Seat 2: trieuphu ($106.45)
    Seat 3: emoneypitt ($55.10)
    Seat 4: Neutronstar ($150.60)
    Seat 5: WhyDaddyDrinks ($64.30)
    Seat 6: Secsbox ($50)
    trieuphu posts the small blind of $0.25
    emoneypitt posts the big blind of $0.50
    The button is in seat #1
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to emoneypitt [Kh Kc]
    Neutronstar calls $0.50
    WhyDaddyDrinks raises to $2.25
    Secsbox folds
    PeelaHundo folds
    trieuphu calls $2
    emoneypitt raises to $9
    Neutronstar calls $8.50
    WhyDaddyDrinks calls $6.75
    trieuphu calls $6.75
    *** FLOP *** [2c 5s 4h]
    trieuphu checks
    emoneypitt bets $46.10, and is all in
    Neutronstar calls $46.10
    WhyDaddyDrinks folds
    trieuphu has 15 seconds left to act
    trieuphu folds
    emoneypitt shows [Kh Kc]
    Neutronstar shows [5h 5d]
    *** TURN *** [2c 5s 4h] [Jd]
    *** RIVER *** [2c 5s 4h Jd] [9s]
    emoneypitt shows a pair of Kings
    Neutronstar shows three of a kind, Fives
    Neutronstar wins the pot ($125.20) with three of a kind, Fives
    emoneypitt adds $50
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot $128.20 | Rake $3
    Board: [2c 5s 4h Jd 9s]
    Seat 1: PeelaHundo (button) didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 2: trieuphu (small blind) folded on the Flop
    Seat 3: emoneypitt (big blind) showed [Kh Kc] and lost with a pair of Kings
    Seat 4: Neutronstar showed [5h 5d] and won ($125.20) with three of a kind, Fives
    Seat 5: WhyDaddyDrinks folded on the Flop
    Seat 6: Secsbox didn't bet (folded)

    I know this is sort of a bad beat since the guy got lucky and flopped the 2 outer but I'm looking for some input as to how you would have played this situation.

    First of all, how many of you would even call off 18 BB with a pair of 5's first to act after a significant reraise? And what would you have done after this kind of flop in this situation?
    "I'd like to play a game. The rules are simple."
  2. MikeyInc's Avatar

    MikeyInc said:

    Default

    well remember its GAMBLING in order to Win you have to What? Exactly!. Good Play in My Book !

    Sorry for the Bad Beat
    POKER CHAMP
  3. allthatremains said:

    Default

    I make the same play.
  4. C8H10N4O2 said:

    Default

    I recently had a similar situation. KK against a flop of 852... I was playing a lower limit, but eventually had $10 in the pot as all in. The guy showed down trip deuces. Hard to swallow sometimes, but it happens.
  5. Brooklynbum said:

    Default

    I think you could've saved money on this hand.

    Letting go of AA is a hard thing to do but if you want to be a real good cash game player you should be able to lay that down if you think you're beat.

    The way I see it - pushing was a bad move on the flop. You could've had the same results by betting $20-$25 on the flop and be able to get away from your AA if you get a smooth call or a check raise.

    It's not unreasonable to be going up against a set here. As any pocket pair is pretty good in a short handed cash game.

    If I'm holding a pocket pair and facing a raise pre-flop I'd call just to set mine for the implied odds. I know if I can hit a set and the other guy has a monster, I'm going to stack him/her and make a lot of money.

    I know this by experience, I've folded big hands when I think I'm beat. I may not always be right but I know I've saved a lot of money by doing that.

    Hope this helps.
  6. irishpkr said:

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brooklynbum View Post
    I think you could've saved money on this hand.

    Letting go of AA is a hard thing to do but if you want to be a real good cash game player you should be able to lay that down if you think you're beat.
    I'm having a hard time comprehending this. I mean yes fold if you're beat, but you have to get your stack in, you lose to a set, of which there are 9 combinations. You beat any pair that he calls with, lets say even if his range is TT-QQ, theres 18 combinations right off the bat. To fold here would be madness, Sparta even. Then there's all the crazy shit he might call with.

    You have roughly, ONE POT SIZE BET on the flop, there is no room to get away here. Infact, you should be dying to get your stack in here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brooklynbum View Post
    If I'm holding a pocket pair and facing a raise pre-flop I'd call just to set mine for the implied odds. I know if I can hit a set and the other guy has a monster, I'm going to stack him/her and make a lot of money.
    To cold-call a reraise like that is simply put, burning money. Here we can see that the coldcaller is getting only roughly 8 to 1 implied odds, a universe away from what you need for set mining to be profitable. Ofcourse this doesnt factor in people to act behind, you might get another coldcaller or two to sweeten the odds, but you're still not getting good odds, and theres no guarentee of stacking the guy either.

    And what if you get raised after you call? You've just tossed $9 away.

    Really no need to post such ROT (results oriented thinking) on such a standard hand as this. Played it grand, though I'd raise to like $10 preflop, its only a minor detail
  7. Brooklynbum said:

    Default

    FYI,

    I've stacked many a player by flat calling a huge raise with small partypoker/">Party Poker and destroying a person who overplays AA or KK.

    Also I've folded AA and KK in those situations where I think I'm beat. Whether I think I'm right or not isn't the point. I'm simply stating that folding AA or KK in that situation can save you significant money. I've done it whether you believe it or not.

    Another thing is that I doubt you're facing a big pair (10/10-QQ for example) otherwise you'd see a re-raise pre-flop. In my opinion it was obvious the other player was playing a small pair (or you'd have to give him/her credit for holding a small pocket pair) and you'd have to give him/her credit for that if they're going flat call a big raise pre-flop.

    That's a fact. If I was in EP I'd re-raise and then fold to a push but since I'm in position on this hand, I know this guy has a strong hand (why bet $9 if you don't have a monster, then I can call and set mine). Hey risking $9 to win over $100 is definitely good implied odds if I can hit my set plus I'm in position on this hand which gives me the advantage of allowing a guy to overplay his monster PP and stack the guy.
  8. irishpkr said:

    Default

    Even risking $9 to win $100 isnt good odds for a small pair, you need AT A BARE MINIMUM 15:1. I'm not gonna go through all the maths, as some kind folks have already done that for us, I'm sure google would show it up. And you're not even guarenteed getting $9 to win $100 lol, theres no guarentee you get other people to call, or someone might reraise behind you.

    You've folded AA or KK, well done, but this isnt the board to do it on in a reraised pot.

    I dont put him on a small pair because you'd have to be pretty bad to coldcall there with a small pair. And there are so many more small pairs that he can call with even if we go with your flawed play. You need to be ahead here roughly 40% of the time, using rough guesstimation here. You are beaten by 9 combos of sets. Basically, if he has 7combos or more of worse pairs, you should call. A pair of say, 88, counts for 6combos alone. Already this is a pretty easy call. Ofcourse you can beat here by a set, but there are so many combos of hands that you similarly have drawing to 2 outs.
  9. saruzzu82 said:

    Default

    PUSH preflop OMG!
    Good post by irish, he said the basis of set-mining, best post i have read in this site.
  10. HeyKidMove said:

    Default

    I believe the correct odds to set mine are 10-1, not 15-1. I do think you could have bet less on the flop, but if you face a raise it's still a tough fold. Thats a rough spot, but you probably should have slowed down with that many people seeing the flop, it's very likely that you're beat.
  11. MikeyInc's Avatar

    MikeyInc said:

    Default

    i think it was the right move .. and 7 of 10 are Wins
    POKER CHAMP
  12. saruzzu82 said:

    Default

    there is not a sure correct odds for sets mining because it is a bet opponent depent. sure is best set mining versus tighest player because they have often overpair/toppair.
    However i heard about 1:12, sure it is between 10-15 : 1
    i think 15 better that 10.
  13. irishpkr said:

    Default

    You'll hit a set like 1 in 8 times or so I believe, but don't forget all those times you don't get paid, and all the times you end up losing anyway. Ends up you need probably more than 15to1 lol
  14. liladypokerpro's Avatar

    liladypokerpro said:

    Default

    Regarding the posts by Brooklynbum...I understand what you are saying...it's the same type of thing I do, and when I try to explain it, nobody understands why. Just wanted to let you know you're not the only one who knows what you are talking about
    I see you talking but all I hear is blah blah blah
  15. Brooklynbum said:

    Default

    Thanks LilLadypokerpro. I'm glad there are like minded players out there like myself.

    All things considered playing low pocket pairs and calling to a big pre-flop raise is exactly what I'm looking for if I'm set mining and looking to stack an opponent. The orignal poster gave a perfect scenario of set mining and he lost his stack because of it.

    The flop was perfect if i was playing 55, 22 or 44. I'm betting that other players are so overconfident about their AA or KK that I know I'm going to get paid off nicely for their overconfidence.

    With 3 or more players in the pot, then I'm getting the right odds to set mine because I know I can maybe stack more than 1 player especially with a board of 2, 4, 5. Then you're looking for a really big payoff for your $9 investment.

    It is exactly against players like those who raise big with AA or KK to think that there's no way somebody could call with small pocket pairs and bingo, they're overconfident and betting like they got the goods, that's when I stick it to them.

    That's just my style and my opinion, to each his own.

    Good luck at the tables everyone...
  16. irishpkr said:

    Default

    Ofcourse this is the ideal scenario, and for arguments sake, lets say that 9to1 is what you need as implied odds.

    You hit your set 9 in 1 times, so in other words, for calling with the small pair to be +EV, you need to get the opponents stack EVERY time you hit. You'll lose $10 for every call and miss, and make $90 when you call and hit, but he has to stack off. Your opponent might have AK and not put another dime in. He might have a higher set. He might hit a flush. Basically I'm just repeating the obvious theme from the original hand - there was never set mining odds on here, and having to rely on getting 1/2 callers behind who will also go allin is hoping for a bit too much
  17. frob23's Avatar

    frob23 said:

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brooklynbum View Post
    FYI,

    I've stacked many a player by flat calling a huge raise with small Party Poker and destroying a person who overplays AA or KK.

    ...

    That's a fact. If I was in EP I'd re-raise and then fold to a push but since I'm in position on this hand, I know this guy has a strong hand (why bet $9 if you don't have a monster, then I can call and set mine). Hey risking $9 to win over $100 is definitely good implied odds if I can hit my set plus I'm in position on this hand which gives me the advantage of allowing a guy to overplay his monster Party Poker and stack the guy.
    What is up with the Party Poker thing here? I can't imagine people making this mistake so often (here and in another thread) and this close together. Something has to be going on.
    I get no respect. . . when I move all-in, people from other tables call.
  18. Brooklynbum said:

    Default

    I figured it out with the Party Poker thing.

    Everytime you put in P P (to signify pocket pair) together the site writes out Party Poker....i.e.

    Party Poker...try it.
  19. The FTP Prodigy said:

    Default the set

    Yeah you do hit a set about 1 time every 9 flops, but it doesnt mean you lose the pot everytime if u don't hit your set. If your in there with pockets tens and you don't hit a set, it doesn't mean that your going to check fold???? NO! your going to try to take the pot down. Only extremely tight passive players would lose every pot that they've entered if they did not complete their set.

    Thanks, The FTP Prodigy
  20. irishpkr said:

    Default

    Then you arent set mining then! The idea was low pocket pairs can be played in a reraised pot with 100BB stacks, which is not the case. Even TT I wouldnt be too happy about playing here.
  21. iceveins0901's Avatar

    iceveins0901 said:

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brooklynbum View Post
    FYI,

    I've stacked many a player by flat calling a huge raise with small Party Poker and destroying a person who overplays AA or KK.

    Also I've folded AA and KK in those situations where I think I'm beat. Whether I think I'm right or not isn't the point. I'm simply stating that folding AA or KK in that situation can save you significant money. I've done it whether you believe it or not.

    Another thing is that I doubt you're facing a big pair (10/10-QQ for example) otherwise you'd see a re-raise pre-flop. In my opinion it was obvious the other player was playing a small pair (or you'd have to give him/her credit for holding a small pocket pair) and you'd have to give him/her credit for that if they're going flat call a big raise pre-flop.

    That's a fact. If I was in EP I'd re-raise and then fold to a push but since I'm in position on this hand, I know this guy has a strong hand (why bet $9 if you don't have a monster, then I can call and set mine). Hey risking $9 to win over $100 is definitely good implied odds if I can hit my set plus I'm in position on this hand which gives me the advantage of allowing a guy to overplay his monster Party Poker and stack the guy.
    THERE!!!

    It is not just me, its something with the Word Filter! I thought I was going crazy, which I probably still am.

    My thoughts are back on page one, if you dont know your opponent, all in

    I actually damn near layed down QQ in a spot just like this one with all low cards, and a check raise back to me on the turn. I knew my opponent and really thought he could have a set and should lay it down, but i didnt, I just check called the river, cost me an extra $47 in the hand for not laying it down, but I made the right read, and in time, I will be able to begin to lay those down. It just takes time, experience, and understanding of this crazy game of ours to be able to lay something like this down.

    [edit] and I see on page two you guys figured it out as well, I should read farther ahead next time.

    [edit2]

    Since set mining is being discussed, in the odds post stated you needed 8.3~ to 1, or 8 to 1 to play correctly for your set, this is saying in order to call a $3 bet, you would need $24~ already in the pot to make the call correct. Implied odds and suck outs aside, the 1 time you hit your set and win, you win $24, the 8 other times you call and lose, you lose $24 total, equaling a break even play, which is why you need proper odds to call in the first place. Your odds have not changed or gotten worse when you call and lose, they are what they are.
  22. irishpkr said:

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by iceveins0901 View Post
    THERE!!!

    I actually damn near layed down QQ in a spot just like this one with all low cards, and a check raise back to me on the turn.

    and I see on page two you guys figured it out as well, I should read farther ahead next time.



    Since set mining is being discussed, in the odds post stated you needed 8.3~ to 1, or 8 to 1 to play correctly for your set, this is saying in order to call a $3 bet, you would need $24~ already in the pot to make the call correct. Implied odds and suck outs aside, the 1 time you hit your set and win, you win $24, the 8 other times you call and lose, you lose $24 total, equaling a break even play, which is why you need proper odds to call in the first place. Your odds have not changed or gotten worse when you call and lose, they are what they are.

    You CAN fold an overpair here, but it you would have to be so deep to do it in a reraised pot. Even in the given hand at the start of the thread, if he bets like $25 instead of shoving, he will get insane odds to call if check raised anyway, something like 4:1 or 5:1 or something. I can only see getting away from KK if we're playing 200BB, maybe even 300BB deep.

    As for getting away from QQ, its possible to get away in a raised pot, but if its a reraised pot at 100BB, more than likely a bet on the flop and turn will have you all in anyway.

    As for the odds you mentioned, there is no way you will ever get 8 to 1 on your money in direct odds: this basically means the whole full ring table has limped in/called a raise. Implied odds are critical to the decision, and should hopefully be 15to1 or better, preferably 18+to1
  23. yodals said:

    Default

    He was very lucky to make an out with actually a poor pocket pair preflop. If I was in his shoes I'd have folded that nasty 55 with such a raise. I think you actually made the right call and that hand would win more times that it lost agaist his.

    Bad luck on the bad beat, but bear this in mind. When I used to play Full Tilt (and this is 100% true) I once lost twice in five hands with quads. And yes that really hurt the bank balance!

    Put it down to just one unlucky hand and kick butt next time around!
  24. fleabit1 said:

    Default

    Unlucky.
    I believe you played it ok tho, I get my money in here too.
    I wouldnt worry about it too much,more often than not ur getting paid off here.
  25. liladypokerpro's Avatar

    liladypokerpro said:

    Default

    hehe hey emoney....I feel your pain man....I lost KK last night to a freakin 6-3 off that the guy just refused to let go of no matter what I bet into him he caught his second pair on the river...there was no flush draw and no straight draw...the board was a blank...AND he was OOP...bad thing is, I had a very tight table image...so he had no real reason to chase me...I think he was just tilted because he lost to another player in a previous hand...so yeah, it happens, just shake it off...
    I see you talking but all I hear is blah blah blah
  26. emoneypitt's Avatar

    emoneypitt said:

    Default

    Wow! Some lively talk here and a lot of good discussion about set mining. Thanks for all of the responses everyone

    Yes, as far as the hand in question here, I felt I really had no other choice but to push. It is +EV in the long run.
    "I'd like to play a game. The rules are simple."
  27. Wallace said:

    Default

    Why is everyone commending the push all in? YES you should be going for his stack with AA/KK here but the only thing thats calling that bet is a set, A3 or 2 pairs.

    Your far more likely to get a caller with a drawing hand or paired ace-rag if you bet $20-$25 on the flop then stack off on the turn...

    I think the push all in is in fear of making a bad call if you get re-raised and as has been debated I don't think your laying down KK here to a re-raise but a smaller bet might entice action.

    By pushing all in you either take down the pot whilst ahead or stack off whilst behind, there's more value to be built here...
  28. bk6070 said:

    Default way too much reading there sheesh

    thats a lot of reading
  29. irishpkr said:

    Default

    Well if we bet $25 on the flop, we're sooo committed anyway. Villian has A3 here like never. A set is possible. But I've already said that there are 9combos of sets, and many more combos of overpairs he will go all in with.

    EDIT: Villian never has a drawing hand here, this is like the driest board in a 3bet pot
  30. Jonathank said:

    Default

    the only thing i object to in that hand is the $3 in rake.
  31. st_ever said:

    Default

    Sorry i never read any posts except the OP. (Too Lazy)

    A check on the flop may have saved you. The action could have been so hot you could have got away but a likely scenario is check x 3. Then on the turn you will have to lead out and still be in trouble. If you bet 1/2 pot on the flop you are committed have to call a shove on the flop but anyway you would be committed for further streets.So all in all i would probably have checked then depending on the action either got it in on turn or fold the flop.

    you are still 10% to win the hand after the flop and ~2% to tie.

    Like i said i never read any of the other posts i seen a couple that said fold. But for the guys who say to fold how do you go about this. Check - fold on that flop witj only one bet is very weak and hugely exploitable. If there is a b et re raise i can see you letting that go like i said that is what i would do.

    How is it my posts never seem to make any sense!!