AK on BB situation - call or fold here?

[emoneypitt]

So here's the layout. 130 some left in the $3 rebuy on Stars, already ITM. Avg stack is about 120K chips at this point so my stack is below average at 78K. I get dealt AK on BB. Folds all around until the button. Button is severely short stacked and pushed as I pretty much expected. SB is only slightly ahead of me with 84K but pushes all in also. This kind of caught me off guard. At this point though, my M <10 and I felt like I had to go for it. Button flips over A8o but SB ends up flipping QQ and it holds and I'm out.

So was I right to call or should I have folded? HH is below.

PokerStars Game #17580839500: Tournament #88687507, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level XVIII (2500/5000) - 2008/05/21 - 00:54:06 (ET)
Table '88687507 28' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: BigDaddyKing (113208 in chips)
Seat 2: AsiaN999 (164356 in chips)
Seat 3: FERNANDOGM (198895 in chips)
Seat 4: freeballin14 (70389 in chips)
Seat 5: 74Jedi (78899 in chips)
Seat 6: westbee (183524 in chips)
Seat 7: hoahien (27818 in chips)
Seat 8: Dalikuk (84755 in chips)
Seat 9: emoneypitt (78353 in chips)
BigDaddyKing: posts the ante 500
AsiaN999: posts the ante 500
FERNANDOGM: posts the ante 500
freeballin14: posts the ante 500
74Jedi: posts the ante 500
westbee: posts the ante 500
hoahien: posts the ante 500
Dalikuk: posts the ante 500
emoneypitt: posts the ante 500
Dalikuk: posts small blind 2500
emoneypitt: posts big blind 5000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to emoneypitt [Kd As]
BigDaddyKing: folds
AsiaN999: folds
FERNANDOGM: folds
freeballin14: folds
74Jedi: folds
westbee: folds
hoahien: raises 22318 to 27318 and is all-in
Dalikuk: raises 56937 to 84255 and is all-in
emoneypitt: calls 72853 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (6402) returned to Dalikuk
*** FLOP *** [Jc 9c 5d]
*** TURN *** [Jc 9c 5d] [7h]
*** RIVER *** [Jc 9c 5d 7h] [5c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Dalikuk: shows [Qh Qd] (two pair, Queens and Fives)
emoneypitt: shows [Kd As] (a pair of Fives)
Dalikuk collected 101070 from side pot
hoahien: shows [Ad 8s] (a pair of Fives)
Dalikuk collected 86454 from main pot
Evanrude99 is connected
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 187524 Main pot 86454. Side pot 101070. | Rake 0
Board [Jc 9c 5d 7h 5c]
Seat 1: BigDaddyKing folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: AsiaN999 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: FERNANDOGM folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: freeballin14 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: 74Jedi folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: westbee folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: hoahien (button) showed [Ad 8s] and lost with a pair of Fives
Seat 8: Dalikuk (small blind) showed [Qh Qd] and won (187524) with two pair, Queens and Fives
Seat 9: emoneypitt (big blind) showed [Kd As] and lost with a pair of Fives

[iceveins0901]

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,370,754 games 0.005 secs 274,150,800 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 56.554% 56.46% 00.09% 773943 1274.67 { QdQh }
Hand 1: 09.013% 08.36% 00.65% 114602 8937.67 { Ac8d }
Hand 2: 34.433% 33.78% 00.65% 463059 8937.67 { AhKs }

I bet you are up against this situation quite often, against a pocket pair and then an A-rag, which you are pretty much throwing your chips in a 3-way flip on your part.

Personally I would fold here against the over shove, it is easy to think that the short stack is pushing any A, which restricts your odds.

(I thought reading it originally that the big stack shoved A8, I see now it was the shorty)

[allthatremains]

I bet you are up against this situation quite often, against a pocket pair and then an A-rag, which you are pretty much throwing your chips in a 3-way flip on your part.

Personally I would fold here against the over shove, it is easy to think that the short stack is pushing any A, which restricts your odds.

(I thought reading it originally that the big stack shoved A8, I see now it was the shorty)

I agree. If you were the one to open the betting and were a bit more pot committed I would say call, but with two all-ins in front of you it usually means one already has a pocket pair and one has an ace. - taking one of your outs. Hard laydown though, as you had the BB in there too.

[dnmrtni]

I agree with the others. I would lay it down. With 2 all ins before me, I have to think that someone has a pocket pair. Lay it down and let those two fight it out.

[st_ever]

Folding here imo is crazy! The play by the button and sb are standard late tornament poker!!

First the buttons shove is ridicuously wide. If he has a poker brain he will literally be shoving any 2 in this spot.

So if you have been in the game for a while if you noticed the small blind is a reasanble player you could quite happily put him on top 35% of hands or even if you want to be slighly coservative 27-30% cause over shoving here is very standard with a reasonable hand.

So using that this is your equity:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 28.786% 27.48% 01.30% 43132698916 2046152469.33 { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A6o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 1: 25.926% 24.56% 01.37% 38544011461 2146498657.33 { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 2: 45.287% 43.40% 01.89% 68109910317 2966578163.33 { AdKs }

Easy Call

This imo is a perfect place to stack up chips. Your m<10 like you said plus the fact that if you win the hand you will have off the top of my head a 200k stack and 1 or 2 in chips at your table.

[BanditPoker]

I can't justify the call there that deep in the tournament to another player who has me stacked. If he was the initial raise, I could smell that out as an over raise and may have more reason to call but not to his isolation all in w/ me behind. What can you beat at that point? AQ, AJ? Not likely he is shoving w/ those hands to isolate the short stack esp with a player that can cripple him left to act. I understand late tournament philosophy and it may appear these are likey late tournament plays, however, why put yourself at risk? Most likely situation is that you are putting your tournament life at risk on a flip. From what it sounds like, you are positioned well in chips and pretty deep into a tournament. Prudent? You always should consider, is it prudent? Among, whether you're ahead, the fav, or what not. You should always ask yourself that question esp in late tournament situations, if you're willing to go bust in that situation. The most reasonable hand the SB could have is a pair or AK. You remember, you're only in for the BB. Unless you're one of those that can ONLY finish high in a tournament by getting lucky in HUGE pots, the more sound strategy is to fold in that spot. To the previous guy and his calculations, you didn't account for the SB having a big hand.

ok i should prob read the hand history b4 commenting. just read ur chip pos. u weren't that short relative to the blinds. 1 double up and ur among the leaders at ur table. go with my original post. i know u don't want to fold that hand but based on the fact that ur even questioning this hand leads me to believe that u want to play a solid tournament. sure if u want to gamble ur tournament then it's an easy call. if u want to play solid leading to solid play in the future then u fold. u call in that spot and it makes it easier for u to continue making similar calls in the future. b4 u know it u will finish out of the money in several tournies and u will feel ur always running into a cold deck or feel u can never win a flip.

[emoneypitt]

Thanks for the responses so far.

To those of you who say fold here: I realized that I was possibly up against a pocket and the button short push was most likely an A-rag push.

Here's the question that I have to that repsonse. With myself already being shortstacked (though not as severely as the button) and with the blinds already being as they are in this situation, how many more reasonable chances can I expect to get a monster or at least something worth pushing before I get blinded out? I also have to consider if I will even get any action on a push in a future situation. I'm basically almost in push/fold mode here as it is.

I definitely understand the response of fold here. I knew I would be <50% in a 3 way pot. If I am at least an average stack of 120K or better here then I probably do fold and wait for a better oppurtunity. I just chose to gamble to win in the situation that I was in instead of a more likely result of milking out a few extra dollars for a higher finish.

[BanditPoker]

i didn't read the hand history and therefore realize that u were short. u made it sound like u had a reasonable stack. my reasoning for folding was based on a good size stack. if u were short it is an insta shove regardless of what u put him on. unless he told u he had AA and u believed him.

[st_ever]

I cannot believe how nitty everybody is.

Ranges:

button (Hand 2) very wide but for arguments sake i have tightened it up a little 22+,A2s+,K6s+,Q9s+,J8s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,ATo+,KTo+, QTo+,JTo

SB (Hand 1) range even tho i disagree with this i have made it very tight:
77+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+,KQo

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.752% 33.92% 03.84% 9613939582 1087068214.00 { AcKd }
Hand 1: 34.094% 30.87% 03.22% 8750189461 914075095.00
Hand 2: 28.154% 26.87% 01.28% 7617907739 362641875.00

Again i fail to see how this is not a call. For me the sb shoul,d be trapping here with a monster (of course i have no history on the sb or bb) and does nobody agree with me this is a standard overshove!! I f i was the sb i would do this with a wide range.

[BanditPoker]

you can set your range of hands on a calculator to be whatever u want it to be. that's fine by me. i, however, have been playing tournament poker for probably longer than u have known about the game. in that situation i am not putting the SB on ATs+,KQs+,AJo+,KQo, etc. obv if u think he has that, u call. that's clearly not what i would have put him on in that spot and it was evident when the cards were exposed. u really would put ur tournament on the line confident he had one of those hands? brilliant! the worst hand i could have put him on was AQ. regardless, it's too much of a risk. AK is not a made hand. do u believe this? or r u among the many dummies out there that reshove anytime u get it regardless of the situation.

again, ur only in for the BB. ur gonna insta call a raise and a reraise by a guy who has u stacked (putting ur tournament life on the line that deep into a tournament)? u have A high. this seems worth it to u? easy call? chances r u have an inferior hand and he did. so basically he got involved in a 3 way all in w/ A high. ok...u play it ur way.

[liladypokerpro]

Bandit:
You know, I will never dawg a good discussion about a thread, but first of all how can you assume to know how long anybody has been playing or how well they know the game?? Secondly, who are you to call him or anyone a "dummy" ????? You may be good at poker, but your character is obviously lacking.... I mean really...take it easy being boastful...nobody wants to hear how good you are over them...that's not what this forum is about...

[BanditPoker]

u r obviously way too uptight to even reply to. however, if u read my post correctly, i never called him anything nor did i ever boast that i was better than anyone. i see u have all the free time on ur hands to be on this site (as u reply to EVERY SINGLE post). if u want to take time to CORRECTLY respond with anything MEANINGFUL then go right ahead. if u noticed, at 1 pt st ever replies that everyone is being "so nitty" as we r stating amateurish opinions...that bc he can input his "own" range of hands to an equation, he is therefore correct. my whole pt is that my opinion is noteworthy (maybe not correct to the poster), but should be considered bc it is made by one who has played over 200 live tournaments. does that make me better than anyone? no. at what pt did i say that i was better than anyone? i was speaking from experience that having seen these exact situations over and over again in countless tournaments, deep in a tournament, it is foolish to simply assume that this is a classic SB overbet w/ a marginal hand. this is and was a classic discussion between a simple math argument vs a diff aspect of deep tournament poker strategy. u have no leg to stand on in this discussion with that garbage u posted. r u simply here to incite something or do u have anything valuable to add? or r u just a defender of the people? this is a classic debate and no one called anyone anything. he has his pts and i have mine. ok everything i said wasn't scribed by a madame of a prepatory acadamy. but was anything i said so bad to get all bent out of shape. for goodness sake, none of this was even directed towards you. let others pick their own battles and butt out esp over something as trivial as this. and please NEVER comment about by etiquette. u know nothing of me. u think being judgmental as u r over something as stupid as this makes u look like some kind of a hero? go lay down by the pool...read a calming book...relax.

btw, st ever,

wasn't trying to be a jerk...just how i write...i apologize if i actually offended u. i thought we were just discussing hand situations. u can now ship $5 to ladypoker"pro?".

[st_ever]

nitty is not abusive to anybody it is just a way of saying tight.

But for you to make assumptions on my ability is both rude and naive. I fail to see how knowing absolutely nothing about me pretty much except for one post on one situation would lead you to believe this. This makes YOU look the bad player from making assumptions with no reads!!

Onto the hand you are being very VERY results orientated. This one situation the hero is dominated. Fair enough. But if you seriously believe that in this exact situation with no reads the worst the sb flips is AQ then well what can i say. For a so called experienced player i am surprised. Pleasetell me what tourneys you ply so i can join they sound very exploitable!!!

Everyone has a right to there own opinion so pleasekeep your assumptions to yourself, discuss the hand in question and also do not stupe to the level of insultting fellow posters who try to keep this sites threads ticking over cause if you havent noticed it is the same 5 - 10 people that post reguarly. Without them this site would have no forum.

[BanditPoker]

if u r seriously insulted by what i said then one of two things or both: a) u obv cannot handle having any debate w/ any semblence of redicule (how trivial they may be) and/or b) u have no backbone and u needed lady to come to ur defense b4 speaking out...simple as that. lastly, if u 2 r the regular posters that r keeping these forums from shutting down...god help this site.

as to the hand, there was enough information provided to make a read and correctly fold. and therefore am not outcome oriented. now it's making real good sense. u auto call bc u put him on a range of hands that include KJ. and btw, i will b in vegas for a month in a half starting next tues. whenever u want...bring some cash. u want to play heads up or single table sng online, pick the site and give me the time. p.s., don't waste my time w/ anything under $50.

[st_ever]

Well then it all comes down to a classic pissing contest!

Now FIRST the hand "there was enough information provided to make a read and correctly fold" PLease point me to this information. All we were shown was a hand history deep in a tournament. the hero has only ~16BB prior to this hand and an M<10. So Given this information you chose to fold. Please please EXPLAIN! Display your hand ranges for the button and sb. All you say is This is wrong. HOW IS THAT A "debate w/ any semblence of redicule". I seriiously believe i have got thicker during this 'discussion'.

And you believe i am seriously insulted another classic case of yourself making assumptions. I said you were rude and naive. This does not mean i am insulted. I live in Scotland and the banter we have on a daily basis is 10x more insulting than this so believe me a have a thick skin.

One last thing the fact you are spending a month in Vegas how does that qualify you to be a good player??? You could be there playing tiddlywinks for all i know!

[liladypokerpro]

I think he's proven my earlier point without any further need for clarification. There is a clear difference between a "debate" and just being all-out obnoxious...

[BanditPoker]

as to the hand, all of my opinions are based on "situation/spot ur in". i've stated this over and over in my posts but clearly u don't understand what that means. do u understand that the range of hands vary by pos AND by the stage of a tournament AND by chip stack? or have u not gotten to this pt in ur poker life. not simply a general SB vs BB situation. it is clear that w/ the blinds being 2500/5000 and antes 500 u r fairly deep into a tournament. u use a generic range of SB hands to be applied in general to any pt of a tournament. any experienced player realizes that there are variables that alter this. u suggest a very basic range of SB hands not accounting for anything else and therefore come up w/ a very simplistic response to insta call. i don't think there is a definitive correct way to play this situation and will probably be different based on the player as i suggested. if u want to gamble then call. if u want to play more solid type then fold. u simply state it is glaringly an obvious call...THAT'S WHERE UR WRONG! there is a decision, more prudent to fold there playing for ur tournament. heads up a diff matter altogether. if the SB limp calls the short stack or raises any other amount, it is justifiable u shove there. but don't tell me in that spot it is "obvious" or that we r being "nitty". last time i checked ur the only one in favor of the insta call on this thread. no matter how u stack it, there was an all in, reraise all in...u have A high...if u put SB on any pair and a reasonable guess that the button has A rag, K high, whatever...do u like ur chances? whatever SB has, u prob need to hit a card to win. best case scenario he has AQ, AJ...ur going to put all ur hopes in that?

if u live in scotland i 100% believe u have heard worse. so wtf is ur prob? y is what is what i said rude or naive? check urself buddy? u call me rude or naive bc u weren't insulted? brilliant! it obv ticked u off enough to respond. u can call "nitty" what u want. i know what it means. u r saying this is an obvious call. and u r saying "what is wrong with you guys, it's SOOO obvious so quit quit overthinking it"...yeah, i know what it means, and i took no offense. but while ur taking a jab at me i just followed up w/ little one of my own...so don't be such a baby.


and no, by being in vegas this summer, this does not make me any better than anyone else. u asked to play tournaments that i will be playing in and i simply stated where my next live tournaments will be...if u don't like the answer don't f'n ask! ur gonna try turn something i said into something that is not after u asked me something? pertty cheesy, u clown. whenever ur ready, i will play u any stakes, anytime, any place...unless u want to play me then i have no more time or patience to deal with someone like u. i will continue to check this thread for your response to play me. anything else will be disregarded. and do me a favor, if u see something i post in the future, just ignore it, i really do not have time for u.

and lady,

u r what i thought u were. someone w/ nothing of value to add to any poker discussion. please do not tell me ur a pro. and, yes, i know the answer so please do not waste the space to reply, "no".

ur absolutely right, what i posted in the previous posts were clearly obnoxious. in every post i am discussing a poker hand and u r just posting garbage to incite. u realize that just bc the number of times u post, does not make u any better of a player. it just shows he have a lot of free time on ur hands. i've seen some of ur millions of other posts (more times than not, u post simply bc u want to be a part of every thread so bad, i.e, this one...nothing contributed...ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!) and i will for UR sake reserve my comments.

and i like to suggest to u as well...please avoid commenting directly to me in any future posts...u have absolutely nothing that can be of any help.

one last thing lady,

i certainly hope that it was someone from jen harmon's camp that asked u to remove ur previous user image. i will ask her.

man i can't help myself...this seriously will be my last post regarding liladypokerpro:

Lady's Full Tilt stats

213 SNGs logged
FISH BOWL DESIGNATION
Avg $11 plyr
AvgProfit -$4
ROI NEGATIVE 30%
Stuck $824

i've seen u post b4 about wanting to turn pro...ok, now go take ur medication and go to sleep.

anyone who reads any of her future posts offering any poker opinion, be aware of the source.

Play good!

[frob23]

There are times like this that I am so glad there is an ignore user function.

[liladypokerpro]

I AM SO GLAD HE DECIDED TO MAKE HIMSELF LOOK FOOLISH BY POSTING THOSE STATS AND ALL HIS OTHER RANTING RUBBISH BECAUSE:

(1) THE STATS FOR FULL TILT ARE NOT MINE ALONE......I HAVE ALREADY TOLD THIS TO THE MEMBERS HERE IN MANY DIFFERENT POSTS, SO EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS THIS: MY PARTNER (TNL) USED MY SCREEN NAME ON FULL TILT TO PRACTICE HER GAME, AT WHICH SHE IS STILL A NOOB. SHE LIKES THE CHEAP TOURNAMENTS SO SHE USED HER MONEY TO PRACTICE IN A LOT OF SMALLER BUY IN GAMES. SHE GOT THE HINT THAT IT WASN'T FOR HER AFTER A FEW MONTHS OF TOYING AROUND WITH IT. BECAUSE WE USED THE SAME DESKTOP COMPUTER SHE COULD NOT CREATE HER OWN NAME UNTIL A FEW MONTHS AGO WHEN I GOT A NEW LAPTOP. THEN SHE ALSO JOINED RAKEBACK AT THE SAME TIME. MY PERSONAL ROI (WHICH I HAVE SAVED ON MY PC IN A SCREEN SHOT) WAS 341% BEFORE SHE STARTED USING MY ACCOUNT. HERS IS NEGATIVE WHICH IS UNDERSTANDABLE CONSIDERING SHE REALLY DOESN'T HAVE THE GRASP OF ALL THE CONCEPTS OF THE GAME YET, AND IS STILL LEARNING.

(2) NOBODY ASKED ME TO REMOVE JEN HARMAN'S IMAGE...SHE IS MY FAVORITE PRO...WHOOPDEEDOO...WHY DO YOU CARE? I TEND TO CHANGE IMAGES QUITE FREQUENTLY (ALSO SOMETHING ALL THE OTHER MEMBERS ARE QUITE AWARE OF). AND AS FOR HOW MANY TIMES I POST, I DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT MY SO-CALLED "STATUS" OR HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT IT. I POST BECAUSE I ENJOY THE PEOPLE HERE......THE PEOPLE WHO CAN HOLD AN ADULT CONVERSATION. THEY ARE WORTH MY TIME AND ARE ENJOYABLE TO BE AROUND AND TALK WITH...IT IS NOT SIMPLY BECAUSE I JUST "WANT TO BE INVOLVED IN THE DISCUSSION..." PLEASE, DON'T FLATTER YOURSELF.

(3) FRANKLY I DON'T GIVE A RATS ASS HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT ME, BECAUSE THANKFULLY I HAVE MORE CLASS THAN TO DEAL WITH PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO WITH THEIR TIME THAN TO PUT OTHER PEOPLE DOWN. AND NO, I'M NOT A PRO, AND NEVER CLAIMED TO BE ONE, SO REALLY, I THINK IT IS YOU THAT NEEDS TO TAKE SOME MEDICATION, BECAUSE I HAVE QUITE A SOLID GRASP ON REALITY, UNLIKE YOU.

(4) THANKS FOR MAKING YOURSELF LOOK LIKE EVEN MORE OF AN ASS...YOU SURE HAVE A LOT OF ANIMOSITY FOR SOMEONE YOU'VE NEVER SPOKEN TO OR PLAYED AGAINST A DAY IN YOUR LIFE......I SIMPLY CALLED YOU OUT AS BEING OBNOXIOUS, WHICH YOU OPENLY ADMITTED TO BEING...SO WHATEVER, DUDE...GAME OVER...

OH AND THANKS FROB, HE'S IGNORED FROM THIS END AS WELL...

HAVE A WONDERFUL DAY!

[st_ever]

Bandit i would like to play you. At the moment i play on Betfair so let me know when you want to play. If you want to make it mixeed games even better. One table nlh one plo even a horse heads up would be good but i don't think Betfair has these. My roll atm allows me to play up to o.25/0.5 so we can play at that level if you want.

If you are a pro or whatever gl to you sir. I have no reason to have a beef with anybody here. If you want to talk poker then fine that is why i am here. You start an argument with myself and one other poster then procede to insult everybody and i'm sory but for an apparent thinking player to drag up somebodys stats is just pathetic. I have read your other posts most of which are very sarcastic and smarmy.

I lol'd when you said that you will only post again if i was offering to play uyou then posted 4 times after that. LOL