Can you fold kings pre-flop?

[Sydenham]

No Limit Hold 'Em is a very dangerous game so I only play it for small
stakes and never cash games but recently I freerolled my way to a
tourney with a ten grand first prize. There were 40 places paid,

I had crap cards and sat waiting patiently, then I had the cowboys so
made a big raise. I was shortish stacked so when someone re-raised all-
in I called, and he had aces.


I always raise big with kings. The problem is that most players are
total donkeys and will never but never fold an ace. I like to make a
big raise, not so big that I can't get away from the hand if an ace
flops, but if I get a safe looking flop I will generally whack it all
in, certainly if I'm heads up. Obviously this doesn't always work but
it's the wy I play.


I had an inkling this guy had the bullets but although I wasn't pot
committed there is no way I'm going to lay down kings pre-flop. There
are some situations in which I might do that, on the bubble or with a
lot of action in front of me on the final table but not here.


Is anyone out there man enough to do it, and how good or bad was my
play?

[abedi]

THE ONLY WAY you can lay down kings preflop, is if it is deep. The one time I laid down kings, I raised (2/4 cash) to 7, he made it 22ish, and I repopped ti 58, he pushed over the top 300 more. I folded based on the fact that this guy doesnt raise to many hands preflop, he could only have aces or AK.

[irishpkr]

As for the orignal topic, folding KK there is pretty horrible. You think a reraise is just aces? An average range would be (JJ+, AK), and thats being VERY conservative considering a freeroll, often people repop with AJ/KQ etc.

And you have never played with this guy, but all of a sudden you have a 'read'? You said you were shortstacked so getting the money in pre is $$$ for you.

Re: the 'raising big' with KK. DONT. Your raise size should be the same regardless of holding KK or 22.

Personally, though I havent been playing long, maybe 25k hands online, I've never folded KK preflop, and as you move to higher stakes where aggression/reads become ever more important, I see it becoming even less likely I'll fold 'em. Your average player at NL50 is stacking off with (JJ)QQ+, AK, so getting it all in is great(minus some exceptional read)

[Sydenham]

[QUOTE=irishpkr;20306]As for the orignal topic, folding KK there is pretty horrible. You think a reraise is just aces? An average range would be (JJ+, AK), and thats being VERY conservative considering a freeroll, often people repop with AJ/KQ etc.

And you have never played with this guy, but all of a sudden you have a 'read'? You said you were shortstacked so getting the money in pre is $$$ for you.

Re: the 'raising big' with KK. DONT. Your raise size should be the same regardless of holding KK or 22.

I don't raise with deuces, generally I won't play them, certainly not in a multiway pot.

[irishpkr]

Well the point was that your raise shouldnt be based on hand strength, not whether or not you raise 22 pre

[brandog479]

Well the point was that your raise shouldnt be based on hand strength, not whether or not you raise 22 pre

What poker world do you live in where raises are not based on hand strength? With KK you want money to get in preflop because you most likely have the best holding. With 22 you most likely do not, thus, making the same raise there does not make sense. A big part of NL holdem is manipulating pot size and the first (and probably most crucial) way of doing that is with your proflop raise (or check or whatever). Making the same size raises disguises your hand but that should not be the only concern, especially at a freeroll where people are most likely more concerned with their next sip of bourbon then reading your betting patterns.

Does this post sound overly harsh? If so, I apologize.

[Vito_Nuccio]

What poker world do you live in where raises are not based on hand strength? With KK you want money to get in preflop because you most likely have the best holding. With 22 you most likely do not, thus, making the same raise there does not make sense. A big part of NL holdem is manipulating pot size and the first (and probably most crucial) way of doing that is with your proflop raise (or check or whatever). Making the same size raises disguises your hand but that should not be the only concern, especially at a freeroll where people are most likely more concerned with their next sip of bourbon then reading your betting patterns.

Does this post sound overly harsh? If so, I apologize.

Raising by hand strength is a good way to lose big pots and win small ones. Monster bets attract the larger hands and forces out the ones you can walk all over. All it takes is a show or two playing this way and a good player will have you nailed, and unless you change gears it will be hard to get chips from that player. As always in poker, every situation is different and calls for unique action.

I do agree with the freeroll statement, in a freeroll all rules go out the window. Any thing goes in a freeroll, even ones with thousands in the purse. When the fish are swimming, throw them some bait, but if bigger fish are in the pond, you will need all of your angling skills to hook em.

Later

[frob23]

It would have to be extremely rare for me to fold Ks pre-flop. Off the top of my head, I can think of only one person and one situation where it would happen. I play a tournament with a regular group of people so I have a few hundred hours of observation to work with (for starters) and one of the players is extremely weak/tight. He'll raise JJ+ if he's the first raiser in the pot... but I happen to know he's likely to call with them if it's raised in front of him. In fact, in the case of a 3-bet pre-flop (where he made the 3-bet), I have never seen him not have Aces. And I think there was only one time he was not called and the hand wasn't shown down.

So, if he made it 3xBB, and I popped it to 11xBB with KK... and then he reraised (probably to 30xBB+)... against this one player... in this one spot... I would have to fold. He just is not putting in that third bet without KK or AA... and the best chance I have there is to tie... and that's the least likely possibility (6-1). Of course, if he was short-stacked (and he usually ends up short), I might be forced to call based just on pot odds and expecting him to have me beat already. I just know he's not putting in a 3-bet with AKs or any pair lower than KK. This player will literally go broke to the blinds waiting for AA before he will 2-bet or 3-bet pre-flop... there have been many tournaments where it's happened.

Against any other player... even some of the very tight players... I doubt I could fold KK pre-flop. No matter how tight they are, none of them are so tight that I could assume my KKs were beat in the depths of stacks we play during the tournaments. I might be able to know at a 4-bet but almost certainly the stacks will be too small compared to the pot to fold even if he showed me AA at that point.

In some cash games, I am probably not folding. I could probably think of some situation where it might happen... but not many.

[Sydenham]

[QUOTE=Vito_Nuccio;20399]Raising by hand strength is a good way to lose big pots and win small ones. Monster bets attract the larger hands and forces out the ones you can walk all over. All it takes is a show or two playing this way and a good player will have you nailed, and unless you change gears it will be hard to get chips from that player. As always in poker, every situation is different and calls for unique action.

I raise big to force out the draws; it may not make them all folld but heads up with kings against 6-7 suited I have a better chance than four way.

The problem as I said is that most players will never, and I mean never, fold an ace pre-flop, no matter how big the raise. They mostly tighten up as the bubble approaches or on the final table, but the donkeys just CAN'T fold.

[DaGreenster]

never folded kings preflop?
if you can like I,
you know you have discipline.

deep stack all-in kings preflop
is not a GREAT thing
so be wary with two kings

you can dodge bullets if you
learn how to play kings
and learn how to fold those kings

all i can say about me
is that i enjoy
writing replies in haiku


-Green

[Wyte22]

There are only two situations in which it is ACCEPTABLE! to fold Ks preflop:

Your a Moderate stack: Your playing $110+9 9player SnG. There's 4 of you left, your sitting there 3rd in chips. Your in the SB, Chip leader is in BB (very tight player), UTG is LAG and BTN is ultra aggressive and short stacked. If BTN raised, and you re-raised. Then got re-raised by the BB, with all in from the BTN or UTG, I WOULD FOLD. Folding is +EV because, of implied! The Chip Ldr who is very tight, re-raised, he gets moved all in by one of the stacks shorter than him. You call, you might have the best hand, you might not but the thing is, your tournament life is on the line. your right, you take a massive chip lead. Your Wrong, well your the bubble boy! It is FAR better to fold KK, let the chip ldr take a shot at bubbling the short stack and move ITM cuz 3rd pays more than 4th! (20% .v. 0%).

When you have a tell/against a pure rock: Even against a pure rock, i'd just flat call his re-raise (unless it was all in, then i'd fold) and see if I might suck out on the flop. If he just checks on the flop, i'd check right along with him to the turn, if he didn't seem to improve, I would place a pot size, "feeler" bet so I can see where I was in the hand. Ya, it may seem like a waste of money but I'd rather know by the turn if I am ahead or behind and sometimes you just gotta pay for information!

[DaGreenster]

i couldnt disagree with you more.

[smiler90]

First things first - make the same sized raise whether you have KK or any other hand as this disguises your hand strength much better. At low stakes people shove with all kinds of rags so KK is ahead of most the players range especially in tournaments when the stacks are generally very shallow, however in cash games when deep(over 100BB's stacks, folding may be optimal against a very tight opponent)

[DeadBabySoup]

if you're a short stack and on the bubble, yes you can fold kk. i folded aces in a hubble freeroll on the bubble. but in that case, the top 99 earn entry to the next round. so it made no sense to get involved and risk a bad beat.

[phaul]

There are only two situations in which it is ACCEPTABLE! to fold Ks preflop:

Your a Moderate stack: Your playing $110+9 9player SnG. There's 4 of you left, your sitting there 3rd in chips. Your in the SB, Chip leader is in BB (very tight player), UTG is LAG and BTN is ultra aggressive and short stacked. If BTN raised, and you re-raised. Then got re-raised by the BB, with all in from the BTN or UTG, I WOULD FOLD. Folding is +EV because, of implied! The Chip Ldr who is very tight, re-raised, he gets moved all in by one of the stacks shorter than him. You call, you might have the best hand, you might not but the thing is, your tournament life is on the line. your right, you take a massive chip lead. Your Wrong, well your the bubble boy! It is FAR better to fold KK, let the chip ldr take a shot at bubbling the short stack and move ITM cuz 3rd pays more than 4th! (20% .v. 0%).

When you have a tell/against a pure rock: Even against a pure rock, i'd just flat call his re-raise (unless it was all in, then i'd fold) and see if I might suck out on the flop. If he just checks on the flop, i'd check right along with him to the turn, if he didn't seem to improve, I would place a pot size, "feeler" bet so I can see where I was in the hand. Ya, it may seem like a waste of money but I'd rather know by the turn if I am ahead or behind and sometimes you just gotta pay for information!

In the SnG situation, if the Button is all in you defiitely shouldn't fold as you have him covered. For you to bubble the Button would have to win and the BB have the second-best hand. Whether you should fold if UTG shoves depends on exact stack sizes and how much you've already put in.

In the second situation, not gonna comment about your reasons for the feeler bet, but if you're gonna make one it should definitely be a lot smaller than pot-sized!

[DEN23DEN]

I don't know if i could ever fold pocket K's pre-flop.Unless i know for sure i'am beat.but i like to take chances.Anything can happen...

[aw84]

The question is, can you fold AA?

The short answer is yes.

That answers KK.

I've finished on the bubble in a cooler with AA. When d big blind is chip leader, he can afford to call suited connector. Unless I got enough chips I wudn't go all-in or call with it in some situation. In cash game I wud always call all-in with KK preflop, shud only play wat u r willing and can afford to lose. I prefer 2 see d flop 4 an ace ofc.

[Wallace]

There is some awful advice in this thread, I wrote a long post rebuking most of it then thought whats the point, if you are folding KK in any situation other than on the bubble of a tournament with equal payouts from 1st to last cash posistion or without a very reliable read then you are making an error.

Note thats with equal cash payouts like in a satellite or double or nothing tournament, NOT A 9 player SnG (folding KK on the bubble there is horrible advice).

FWIW this is a situation where I folded KK as there were two shorter stacks than me in a double or nothing tournament and I was facing a raise from the big stack who was definately not going to fold to my re raise.

Poker Stars $10.00+$0.40 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t150/t300 Blinds + t30 - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (CO): t1730
BTN: t3515
SB: t770
BB: t1555
UTG: t1870
MP: t5560

Pre Flop: (t630) Hero is CO with KK
1 fold, MP raises to t600 hero...

Not to be results orientated but SB busted out the very next hand and I took the same prize as the big stack who had 6k chips.