What is the weakest A-x you will bet out of position?

[frob23]

This is on the flop. Say you have A-8 (from the BB) and are in the hand with 3 other people (2 limpers and the SB). The flop comes A-6-J. The SB checks to you. Are you betting here?

How about if it checks around on the flop and the turn's a 9, do you bet there? If you do and get a caller... are you betting on a blank river?

Regardless of how you answered these questions, what Ace-x would be strong enough to lead out, OOP, in these spots?

[RiverstarsVictim]

If early limpers I'm going with caution and checking, if late limpers I think my 8 kicker is good as anything stronger should be raising PF but I'm also prepared to lay down to further action. Much is dependant on previous knowledge of my opponents and I aint getting stacked here, there's many better opportunities to be had.

As for your later question, I don't think there's much difference whether your rag is 8 or 2, it's how you play it that counts and I think they both play the same way. Maybe somebody will correct me here. Being in the blind I'll use pot control and maybe unleash if the board pairs off and kickers suddenly become irrelevant. Once again though, it does depend on who's in the pot and previous knowledge.

[gamer4life27]

If you are OOP, and theres not that many people in the hand, then most likely you have the best hand with a pair of aces alone. Limpers usually don't have an ace. And if someone did get an ace, they would either throw it away because the kicker is too low, or raise with a good kicker.

When playing OOP, you always want to make a feeler bet if you connect with the flop to see where you are at. This information will give you an indication of what there hands are. So say you have A 2 in the BB, 3 other people (2 limpers and SB) see the flop. It comes out A 6 J. SB checkes, and you bet. For all they know, you could have checked A J in the BB. Leading out and betting on the flop from the BB with no raises behind you always confuses people. If you do get some callers, play cautiously. You never know if they are calling you to take the pot, or if there on a draw, or have a better hand than you.

When you see the BB raise on the flop with no pre flop raises, you can never put him on an exact hand. You always have to have a range of hands to put them on. Then, as the board plays out, you get a feel of what they really have.

But be aware, that being OOP is both a advantage and disadvantage. You can bet before them, and if they wanted to bluff, you just took that away. But if you bet, and your faced with a re-raise, you have to make a really tough decision. So being OOP isn't all that bad, just not all that good either.

[liladypokerpro]

Most flops miss most hands...but the turn is another story. With that said, if I flopped aces, and everyone's checking around, believe I'm coming out firing. If I get re-raised, then I know where I stand, and make the decision according to previous history with the opponent on whether to re-pop or fold. I don't like to call in a situation like that, because it leaves the door wide open for them to hit whatever card it is they may be after, if any. As far as what ace could be strongest, any ace could be strong on a flop like that, but I don't like weak aces, so I need at least a 10 kicker or better to proceed somewhat confidently, and even then the 10 is iffy...

[rakmupagain]

Makes a big difference if the game is 6 handed or full. But, I like to avoid this situation altogether and punish those nits for limping. Raise it from the big blind (pot raise or so) here and usually u will take it, or isolate one fish. Both are profitable situations.
If for some reason I'm at flop in that situation. I would defenitely bet ur ace on flop, otherwise u are lost the rest of the hand. With 1 caller id value bet turn as well, and make decision on river, based on your information. You probably have any caller beat, and can make an easy laydown to a reasonable raise.

I just love when there are a bunch of limpers and I'm in late position, in the bb id rather avoid the flop and take it down.

[Jonathank]

for me it's AA. all other aces check/fold

[gamer4life27]

Full Tilt Poker Game #7337373756: $1 + $0.25 Sit & Go (55781483), Table 3 - 60/120 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:47:15 ET - 2008/07/23
Seat 1: UHOHgot-cha (4,950)
Seat 2: fweow (6,650)
Seat 3: Junior71 (5,945), is sitting out
Seat 4: gamer4life27 (1,355)
Seat 5: PaceSetter11 (1,485), is sitting out
Seat 6: kmpp (4,510)
Seat 7: Rivuqueen (14,740)
Seat 8: ajencos (2,990)
Seat 9: KingTwin (7,145)
Junior71 posts the small blind of 60
gamer4life27 posts the big blind of 120
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to gamer4life27 [2d As]
PaceSetter11 folds
kmpp folds
Rivuqueen folds
Junior71 has returned
ajencos folds
KingTwin folds
UHOHgot-cha calls 120
fweow folds
Junior71 calls 60
gamer4life27 checks
*** FLOP *** [4s 9d Ad]
Junior71 has 15 seconds left to act
Junior71 checks
gamer4life27 bets 360
UHOHgot-cha folds
Junior71 has 15 seconds left to act
Junior71 is sitting out
Junior71 has timed out
Junior71 folds
Uncalled bet of 360 returned to gamer4life27
gamer4life27 mucks
gamer4life27 wins the pot (360)
The blinds are now 80/160
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 360 | Rake 0
Board: [4s 9d Ad]
Seat 1: UHOHgot-cha folded on the Flop
Seat 2: fweow (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: Junior71 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: gamer4life27 (big blind) collected (360), mucked
Seat 5: PaceSetter11 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: kmpp didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Rivuqueen didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: ajencos didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: KingTwin didn't bet (folded)

[gamer4life27]

Full Tilt Poker Game #7337461065: $1 + $0.25 Sit & Go (55781483), Table 3 - 80/160 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:54:35 ET - 2008/07/23
Seat 1: UHOHgot-cha (5,390)
Seat 2: fweow (7,290)
Seat 3: Junior71 (5,745)
Seat 4: gamer4life27 (3,190)
Seat 5: PaceSetter11 (1,245), is sitting out
Seat 7: Rivuqueen (14,500)
Seat 8: ajencos (1,155)
Seat 9: KingTwin (6,905)
Junior71 posts the small blind of 80
gamer4life27 posts the big blind of 160
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to gamer4life27 [9d Ad]
PaceSetter11 folds
Rivuqueen folds
ajencos has 15 seconds left to act
ajencos folds
KingTwin calls 160
UHOHgot-cha calls 160
fweow calls 160
Junior71 has 15 seconds left to act
Junior71 calls 80
gamer4life27 checks
*** FLOP *** [3h 4h Ac]
Junior71 checks
gamer4life27 bets 800
KingTwin folds
UHOHgot-cha folds
fweow raises to 7,130, and is all in
Junior71 has 15 seconds left to act
Junior71 has requested TIME
Junior71 calls 5,585, and is all in
gamer4life27 has 15 seconds left to act
gamer4life27 folds
fweow shows [7h 8h]
Junior71 shows [Ah 9c]
Uncalled bet of 1,545 returned to fweow
*** TURN *** [3h 4h Ac] [Td]
*** RIVER *** [3h 4h Ac Td] [3s]
fweow shows a pair of Threes
Junior71 shows two pair, Aces and Threes
Junior71 wins the pot (12,770) with two pair, Aces and Threes
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 12,770 | Rake 0
Board: [3h 4h Ac Td 3s]
Seat 1: UHOHgot-cha folded on the Flop
Seat 2: fweow (button) showed [7h 8h] and lost with a pair of Threes
Seat 3: Junior71 (small blind) showed [Ah 9c] and won (12,770) with two pair, Aces and Threes
Seat 4: gamer4life27 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: PaceSetter11 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Rivuqueen didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: ajencos didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: KingTwin folded on the Flop

That one sucked. I was double guessing myself because of this thread...

[frob23]

That one sucked. I was double guessing myself because of this thread...

Are you kidding? In what world would you have possibly called an all-in with an Ace that weak?

[liladypokerpro]

LOL OMG FROB....this is the first time I actually read your signature!!! LOL That's priceless!!!

[frob23]

LOL OMG FROB....this is the first time I actually read your signature!!! LOL That's priceless!!!

lol, you like that? Remember to say it in your best Rodney Dangerfield voice.

[liladypokerpro]

Well I can try LOL

[gamer4life27]

Are you kidding? In what world would you have possibly called an all-in with an Ace that weak?

My first instinct was to call, but I was thinking to myself that I was going to see the cards either way, so why put up my tournament life? But I didn't listen to my gut that way and folded the winning hand.

[frob23]

With a 5 way, unraised pre-flop, pot... your instinct was to go broke with only 1 pair and no kicker?

Not only are there 6 A-x combinations that are crushing you, there's a possible straight and another 2 pair with 3-4. Almost any A-xh is hurting you bad (although he had the Ah here... it wasn't Axh). 5-6h would also suck for you to play all-in because you're behind to it... even against 6-7h (which is a gutshot straight flush draw) you're not too happy although you're ahead there.

And don't forget the possible sets: 3-3, 4-4, and A-A.

If you bet and someone shoves all-in, it should be an instafold with your hand and that board.

Edit calling in that spot has to be -EV. On top of that, even if you call here... you're drawing to a split pot... which stinks for you and probably isn't worth it from an EV perspective (although I haven't run the specific numbers here)... especially with the backdoor flush redraw the other A9 has.

[gamer4life27]

Well the table was playing pretty tight. I noticed that if they limped, they didn't have anything strong. They wanted to see a flop for cheap. So when I got that, I thought I had the best hand. I would have tied for the winning hand, but I still would have had more money than when I started the hand.

[frob23]

Well the table was playing pretty tight. I noticed that if they limped, they didn't have anything strong. They wanted to see a flop for cheap. So when I got that, I thought I had the best hand. I would have tied for the winning hand, but I still would have had more money than when I started the hand.

And hands like AJ, AT, A4, and A3 don't count in the listing of hands that weren't "anything strong" pre-flop? They saw the flop for cheap, you made a pot sized bet, and someone was thrilled enough with what they flopped to shove all-in... and then... to make matters worse... another player calls and puts themselves all-in... at what point could you possibly think top pair 9-kicker was good? Just because they didn't raise pre-flop and wanted to see it cheap doesn't stop them from flopping really strong. A lot of players will limp 44 and 33 (especially after other people and with position). How about the SB... easily priced into calling with hands like 2-5 suited... 5-6 suited (in hearts)... how about 34... and so on...

Calling in that spot would be bankroll suicide. Sure... in this one instance you would have gotten a split pot... but in 99% of the other times, you'd have been so far behind it wouldn't be funny.

[gamer4life27]

I understand where yoru comming from. Trust me. I would normally fold, but in that instance, I just felt something in me that told me to call. Thats all I'm saying.

[Matthew]

I would say it depends on the players on the table. If had a chance to build up some reputation I might bet, but if I'm rather the fish, I'll check.