You got questions, I got answers.

**gamer4life27** · 21st July 2008 01:29 AM

I have decided to write up a topic for everyone's questions that they may have. This can anything from what hands beat what, to a hand analysis, to the origins of donkeys and fish, and the difference between the two, etc.

I don't claim to be a guru in poker, but I am sure I know a lot that others might not know. I welcome all questions, beginner to really tough decisions. Please post them, and I will answer them whenever I get the chance.

I plan on making this topic go on for a while, so keep the questions coming!

**frob23** · 21st July 2008 03:11 AM

Here's a fun one that was asked a couple weeks ago at a cash game. We were playing "Follow the Queen -- no Queen, no Game" which is a 7 card stud game where Queens are wild as well as the next up card dealt after a Queen. Basically, if a player is dealt a Q and the next person is dealt a 4, Qs and 4s would be wild. If another Q comes, 4s would no longer be wild and the next up card would be (unless there is no more up-cards in which case only Qs would be wild). In this version "No Queen, No Game" if there is no visible queen by the time the last upcard is dealt (assuming it gets that far), the entire hand is declared void... the pot remains in the middle... everyone reante's... and a new game starts.

Got the basic idea? They're playing 6 handed (I was sitting on the rail at the time) and it's an action game where the majority of people play every hand all the way to 7th... so you can assume the simplest -- and most likely outcome -- of everyone staying in.

One of the players was complaining that he hated games that reset (like this one) and someone asked the question. The question was, "What are the odds of having a 'No Game' under these circumstances?" It was meant to point out that with so many upcards, they weren't likely to face a reset anyway. But the original player really did want to know... what were the chances?

What are the odds of having no Q in the up-cards?

Helper details: with 6 people, there are 24 visible cards if everyone stays in till 6th street (the last visible street).

Note: I was bored during the game and do know the answer to this (and gave my rough answer to the people at the time) but I would like it checked anyway. So if you have the same answer it would confirm my math. Besides, it's a good probability test.

**gamer4life27** · 21st July 2008 04:10 AM

I am familiar with Follow the Queen.

But your way is different than the way I learned. I looked it up, and in most games (like the way I learned), the card after the queen is the wild, and not the queen. But I know the basic concept.

This one is a fun one, lol. Lets start with the basic math.

The chances of being dealt a Queen in any single card is 4/52, as you already know. So when dealing a card, there is a 48/52 chance that you will not be dealt a queen. So lets say that the under cards are dead cards. This will make it easier to do the math.

Like you said before, there is going to be 24 cards up at the end of the round with 6 people in the hand. If each one of the cards dealt was not a Queen, then the odds would be 48!/52! up until 24!/28! (48 factorial/52 factorial up until 24 factorial/28 factorial). That would put the odds like such (in simplest form):

48! * 27 * 26 * 25 * 24
52 * 51* 50* 49* 48!

After simplifying the fraction looks like so:

27 * 26 * 25 * 24
52 * 51* 50* 49

Or:

385704
6497400

That is the odds of a Queen not being dealt out of 24 cards, not including the face down cards. That in percentage is ~5.94% (0.05936282205...).

So the odds of a game being void by the end of the game with all 24 cards being on the table would be roughly 6%. Did I get it right? I haven't done Stud math in a while, and that one is a real tricky one.

If you don't know how to do factorials, say so and I will explain it.

**liladypokerpro** · 21st July 2008 04:33 AM

I think I just pooped a factorial brick just reading this LOL

**gamer4life27** · 21st July 2008 04:35 AM

Lmao. Poop! = disaster!

**frob23** · 21st July 2008 04:37 AM

I did it out on paper actually, at the time... but it looks like you have an "Obiwan Error" (Off-By-One Error). You're taking off 24! so it's 25-28, not 24-27. It works out to:

28 * 27 * 26 * 25
52 * 51 * 50 * 49

After simplifying the fraction looks like so:

491400
6497400

Which is 12.2 to 1 against (the answer I gave was 12 to 1 at the game) or ~7.56%.

Note: while I know factorials, I was asked to prove this to a member of the game (after the fact) who didn't and we wrote it all out and crossed out the numbers to simplify. I worked it out logically in my head (bottom 4 numbers on the top of the fraction, and top 4 from the bottom) and then simplified it down there. If I am mistaken, I would be shocked... I'll rework it though.

Edit: Simply put... you have:

48!
(48-24)!

As your numerator and

52!
(52-24)!

as you're denominator. The overlap is from 29-48... so you can dike all those out. Leaving the top and bottom 4 I mentioned before. At least that is how I mentally pictured it. I didn't bother combining the equations all at once. I tried to simplify them first in my mind (mostly because I was reduced to pencil and napkin at the time and didn't want to write them out).

**gamer4life27** · 21st July 2008 04:42 AM

Ok, so I did have the math right, just a little error in the beginning subtracted 1.5% to the end result. Thanks for the tip. I did all tht math in like 2 minutes, so one little error isn't too bad.

**gamer4life27** · 21st July 2008 04:53 AM

Ok, in my mind, I thought it was 48-24, because 48 - 24 = 24, but it's really 48-25. And knowing that, in my mind, I got rid of the 29 on both sides because I figured there had to be 4 numbers on both sides of the fraction.

There, I figured out what I did wrong in my mind.

**frob23** · 21st July 2008 04:53 AM

Also, we sometimes play "Follow the B****" which is the same game as "Follow the Queen" but the Queen's not wild. Regardless of the name, we always clarify as the start of each round (or hand if it's on a hand by hand basis) what the specific rules are regarding the wilds and the 'no game' if these things apply. So they'll state, "The game is Follow the Queen -- No Queen, No Game... Queens are wild and the next card too... no Queen, and the hand restarts," before dealing the first card... so everyone is clear. But most people understand the rules from the name itself.

They love crazy games at this place... and there are a couple which have restart conditions which just get insane.

**frob23** · 21st July 2008 04:59 AM

lol ... and no worried about the mistake. Off by one errors are common when doing math on the fly.

I just enjoyed the thought process behind it because it seems insanely hard but it's not bad. If you actually work the numbers out... it's very easy to simplify the fractions all the way down to 9/119 without any complicated math before getting stuck. So there's no need for even a calculator. And from there it's 110-9... and simple division tells you it's about 12-1 against... which is as specific as I got on the fly.

**gamer4life27** · 21st July 2008 05:05 AM

I once played this game kind of like a 7-card no peak. But you turn them over one at a time until you have the best hand. Once you have the best hand currently, you don't turn over any more cards, and make a bet. But, when you turn over a 3 or 9 (or something like that), then you can buy another card. Meaning you can pay the minimum to get an extra card from the deck. I don't think these are the exact rules, but it goes something like that. I'll ask the guy next time I see him and post it.

But he said he was playing it limit $1/$2, and the pots were regularly like $300+

And yeah, I already knew it was one of those that looked hard, but was really easy. And I assumed a lot of people would think the number would be much higher that it actually would have been.

But I should have known because 1/13 (chances of getting a queen) is ~7.69%. So the number should have been relatively close to that.

**chewbaka** · 21st July 2008 05:15 AM

Stop it my nose is bleeding!

Let's talk about John Cena and Undertaker

**gamer4life27** · 21st July 2008 05:18 AM

Lol. Sorry if I am a normal poker player and know how to do math.

But I don't keep up with wrestling, and this topic is supposed to be for poker questions.

**frob23** · 21st July 2008 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by gamer4life27

I once played this game kind of like a 7-card no peak. But you turn them over one at a time until you have the best hand. Once you have the best hand currently, you don't turn over any more cards, and make a bet. But, when you turn over a 3 or 9 (or something like that), then you can buy another card. Meaning you can pay the minimum to get an extra card from the deck. I don't think these are the exact rules, but it goes something like that. I'll ask the guy next time I see him and post it.

But he said he was playing it limit $1/$2, and the pots were regularly like $300+

And yeah, I already knew it was one of those that looked hard, but was really easy. And I assumed a lot of people would think the number would be much higher that it actually would have been.

But I should have known because 1/13 (chances of getting a queen) is ~7.69%. So the number should have been relatively close to that.

Are you talking blind baseball? Or midnight baseball in some parts.

3s and 9s are wild... a 4 and you can buy an extra card... and, like you were saying, you flip cards one at a time until you have the best hand.

**gamer4life27** · 21st July 2008 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by frob23

Are you talking blind baseball? Or midnight baseball in some parts.

3s and 9s are wild... a 4 and you can buy an extra card... and, like you were saying, you flip cards one at a time until you have the best hand.

That's it. I thought it was baseball, but I wasn't too sure. Thanks.

**gamer4life27** · 21st July 2008 06:08 AM

Lmao, just realized I miss spelled answers in the title.:P

**rakmupagain** · 21st July 2008 07:48 AM

I dont participate in games with wild cards, dealer chooses etc, yes they can be fun ( I guess) but id rather play games that are "serious".

That being said, I always did like the 7 card no peak game mentioned above. I think its a pretty good game that can be played very profitably. I like playin it PL rather than limit (which i think is the way it was always played, been awhile.) For those math players, it is a great way to optimally bet each chance, and have quite a bit of information in which to base it on. And I've played buy option before on 4's. U might be thinking of baseball, where 3's and 9's are wild option of buy with 4/ or who knows.
As I played it ur hand was always dead in "no peak" if u peeled off a card after having the board beat already (which was brutal for the drunks, quite enjoyable for the rest of us) Those where the days, when no one had a clue what they were doing.

**tony** · 21st July 2008 07:57 AM

Hey gamer4life27,

Edited your thread name

**gamer4life27** · 21st July 2008 08:54 AM

Thanks tony.

I'm just one of those guys who hates typos, so that would have annoyed me to no end.

**liladypokerpro** · 21st July 2008 09:31 AM

LOL gamer........OCD much?

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