Short Stack Strategy

[abc]

Short Stack Strategy

Short Stack Strategy or SSS is an über popular poker strategy for no-limit hold ‘em, which developed as the internet poker boom started attracting inexperienced player who were usually prey to highly-skilled card sharks. With so many fishes ripe for culling, these sharks made innovations by playing an insane number of tables at the same time^1 with a strategy that has minimal risk and required little decision making before and after the flop. The theory behind it was, “Get the fish before someone else does”.

SSS today, is a science advocated by many poker schools to new players who want to explore the world of poker. This is my take on how it works:

- Choose (a) table(s) with at least 7-8 players^2
- Avoid tables with a lot of raising/re-raising going on
- Buy-in for 20x BB [so for NL10 ($0.05/$0.10) it’s $2] ^3
- Wait for the big blind to come around to you or immediately start playing if you are on one of the 2 late positions
- Play only good hands relative to your position – AKx, (AQs maybe) and monsters (AA/KK/QQ) in early position, add JJ,TT,99,KQs to the list for middle position, add 88,77, A+face card, A+rag suited, suited connectors for your late position playables. Create your own list and stick to it.
- Raise accordingly, you will never enter a pot without your guns blazing unless you are in the small blind and the pot odds for calling are really good or you get to see a free flop from the big blind. Proper raising means 4x BB raises + 1x BB for each limper if you are opening the pot. If there was a raise/re-raise, either re-raise 3-4x the last raise/re-raise + 1x the last raise/re-raise per caller or go directly all-in
- Know when you are beat, do not be afraid to lay down AK if you miss with it and there are more than 2 people playing for the pot. Make continuation bets against tight opponents. Conti-bets should be around 50-66% of the current pot
- Always keep your stack at 20x BB if it falls bellow this level (Full Tilt Poker has this feature)
- Stand up and play somewhere else when you have 35x BB or more


If you yourself are familiar with SSS, please do not hesitate on posting a reply. The aim of this post is to inform. More contributions means more information:-P

GL at the tables!


^1 Havad Khan claims to have played 46 no-limit tables at the same time! The most I’ve seen personally is 16 tables between 2 monitors and a Rockstar energy pumped up poker freak:-P
^2 It’s possible to play SSS on just a single table
^3 This is the level I believe rookies should start playing at. Lower limits won’t teach you much as it’s usually a donkfest

[Vito_Nuccio]

I agree with most of your points, but not all.

The one I have the most trouble with is the 20XBB buy in. This should be at 75-100 X BB. If only buying in for 20X BB you are limiting yourself to the amount of chips you can win when the monster comes or your ability to push another off a hand, they simply will have no fear of your stack. 20XBB will and can leave you short in critical situations. In fact, if you get down to 50XBB you should start to consider a re-buy to strengthen your stack.

If the amount is too high, then a reduction in game level is in order. Tournament short stack play is forced, there is nothing you can do but play it. Cash game short stack is self induced. Do not play at a disadvantage, have enough reserves.

Later,

[abc]

The 20x BB buy-in is for absolute beginners. that means no advance moves like protecting and/or pushing hands. The SSS-player is just supposed to play like a robot adhering strictly to a SSS hand chart (I had one a while back). His only moves are just raise, re-raise/allin or fold.

I tried it just for fun sometime ago with a $50 free bankroll I recieved from a poker school and although quite boring, it turned my initial $50 to $150+ in around a weeks time by playing in NL10(I did play atleast 6 tables at the same time). I moved up to NL25 and got to my goal of $300 in 2 weeks (it took a bit longer because I had a bit of a downswing plus I made the mistake of playing on tables with other SSS-players - which meant my big hands didnt get paid much).

I moved up to the next level (NL50) immediately after I got to $300. This was part of the bankroll management scheme from the poker school. I did okay on the new level but not as good as I wanted to or have been doing on the previous 2. Reason was, not only were the players on to the SSS, the NL50 players were more solid than the ones on the NL100, NL200 and Limit $3/$6!

I eventually got to $400 after 2 weeks of heavy swings and decided I've had enough of the SSS. I went and got myself the required number of FPP I had to clear and cashed out around $2600 (I got really lucky on the daily $15K and made 3rd - I was also smart enough use the $$$ for downpayment on a new SUV knowing I would probably blow it away if I didnt)

I think what made me successful as a temporary SSS player was that, I adhered STRICTLY to the rules the poker school gave me. It was painful to fold AQo UTG because my chart told me to. Looking back, I think it was quite an achievement. It wasnt just about poker, it was the same thing that pushes me to go to they gym to try and further hone my fighting skills. Self-discipline.

I'm a very competitive person but I dont plan on playing poker as a profession (although it's very hard to keep off it specially since most of my childhood friends from playing Magic the Gathering card game are poker-pros). I still play for fun on my favorite poker site and I still do well enough to never need to make a deposit and occassionally cash some out (and I'm not running SSS:-P)

If anyone is interested on the poker school, just PM me and I'd be more than happy to send you the link. The contents are quite good and there are no deposit requirements:-) Good combo imo. It's unfortunately not available to players from the USA:-(

Regards and best of luck at the tables!

Mark-Antoine on FTP, one of the weakest MTT players of all-time:-)
Hold 'Em Limit $1/$2 player and occassional Pot Limit Omaha H/L ethusiast
lots of time in hand atm due to the stupidity of not knowing when to tap out:-((

[Fictive]

I've gone through some stats of short stack players that are frequently sitting in same tables as I am. They usually buy in for minimum, which is (at least there) 10xBB. I don't get the logic behind that, as their stats show pretty much the same for these few players after a ton of hand. Their flop% is around 6-8% and PFR is the same. Both are clearly winning, so that much I get the logic behind playing like that, but nevertheless, IMO, a horrible style to play.

Oh, about the Hevad Khan thing you posted, it is very true. He played 46 sit&go's at the same time, and got his account banned from Pokerstars because they suspected him of being a bot, and he made a video to them as proof of insane multitabling and got his account back. There are are "only" 26 sit 'n go's going on here, but that should be enough.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQl0xgIP5D4]YouTube - Hevad "RainKhan" Khan playing 26 sit'n'go's simultaneously[/ame]

While I was looking at that, I ran across this one: multitabling 51 tables!!! Now that's insane!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f5IUP-ELzA&feature=related]YouTube - Multitabling (51 tables)[/ame]

[liladypokerpro]

Holy cow I get a head ache just looking at that LOL The most I ever did at once was 6, and that was only because I was strung out on coffee LOL

[bossmanisme]

"Avoid tables with a lot of raising/re-raising going on"
i could be wrong, but pretty sure you want a table with lots of raising and reraising. your goal is to get your chips in the middle after waiting around for a premium hand. if you're at a table with a bunch of nits you're not gonna get paid.

"Make continuation bets against tight opponents. Conti-bets should be around 50-66% of the current pot"
your stack isn't deep enough to make c-bets without committing yourself.

"Stand up and play somewhere else when you have 35x BB or more"
this is *HORRIBLE* etiquette. i have no problem with this strategy (aside from it's lack of ability to maximize profit) except for this. it's completely unacceptable.

[abc]

"Avoid tables with a lot of raising/re-raising going on"
i could be wrong, but pretty sure you want a table with lots of raising and reraising. your goal is to get your chips in the middle after waiting around for a premium hand. if you're at a table with a bunch of nits you're not gonna get paid.

"Make continuation bets against tight opponents. Conti-bets should be around 50-66% of the current pot"
your stack isn't deep enough to make c-bets without committing yourself.

Stand up and play somewhere else when you have 35x BB or more"
this is *HORRIBLE* etiquette. i have no problem with this strategy (aside from it's lack of ability to maximize profit) except for this. it's completely unacceptable.

About standing up and playing somewhere else whenyou are ahead. Well, that's why it's called a strategy. You have to ruthlessly implement it (just business, nothing personal). Yes, it is quite unacceptable in live play but the topic is about online play and you goal is to "ant" away your winnings. People are not trying socialize and make friends if they are running SSS. It's that simple. This just like religion and morals, dont force your beliefs onto others:-)

About making continuation bets, it works most of the time against a single tight or solid opponent. Most of the time, you are still ahead even if you miss the flop because you usually just raise with premium hands.

About avoiding active tables, of course you want to get paid, but you are definitely not getting paid there. Why? Because you follow a strict set of rules, i.e. you raise with AKs UTG, there is a re-raise, a call and another re-raise. The hand chart will definitely tell you to fold this. Remeber, the SSS is there for the purpose avoiding hard decisions. it's definitely harder to play poker against active players (Gus Hansen is the perfect example). For an experience player, this may be a bit of an extreme. But remember, poker rookies find it very hard to play draw hands like A+face cards. I have folded AK quite a few times, and more than 75% of the time, the fold was the correct play.

About buying in for 10x BB. Most site s have their min buy-in at 20xBB in the micro and mid limits. I never really thought of buying in for just 10x BB. Like I said, I just followed the instructions from the strategy articles.

Awesome vids btw, I couldnt believe my eyes lol
The Pokerstars suspension/action against him is one of the reason I cashed out from that site. They question most of your action. The software also tracks your IP address. You having friends over and playing at the same time is a big no-no.

[bossmanisme]

This just like religion and morals, don't force your beliefs onto others:-)

that is the worst comparison ever. it is *polite* to not force your religious and moral beliefs onto others. it is *rude* to sit down, play 2 rounds, and leave with someones money.

just imagine if everyone played this style, it would be awful. poker would be pathetic and dreadful. you would have to go all the way to 1-2 just to dream of playing a pot over 100 dollars! (remember, that's 1/2 a buy in at that limit.) talk about boring.

[Jonathank]

omg i'm nauseous. nice video.

[abc]

that is the worst comparison ever. it is *polite* to not force your religious and moral beliefs onto others. it is *rude* to sit down, play 2 rounds, and leave with someones money.

just imagine if everyone played this style, it would be awful. poker would be pathetic and dreadful. you would have to go all the way to 1-2 just to dream of playing a pot over 100 dollars! (remember, that's 1/2 a buy in at that limit.) talk about boring.

there you go again, imposing your beliefs and morals unto others. fyi, while there are still people like you out there. there are more mature people who dont mind such strategies at all because it is still just a game and they have their own game plan.

i used play a lot of street basketball for money in my younger days. to some people, it was *polite* not to call fouls and just play out the games like true "warriors". these folks also find it *rude* if the winners turn down their double or nothing offer after they lose games. you remind me a lot about them, simply because they claimed that our style of play was boring and wasnt good for the cash game. guess what, me and my crew, we took their money on the regular.

we played uptempo-swarming D with outlet passing every opportunity type of basaketball - this is what our hs coach taught us. this strategy requires a lot of cardio and is quite draining. this is the reason why we play just 1 game everyday, that was the plan. We walked away exactly $250 richer($50 each) almost everyday for over 2 years. I dont think we would have had the same success if we grinded the way the other homies did. We werent as strong or as big as they were. And definitely not as experienced. We were just high school kids who were fast and had a plan.

[bossmanisme]

there you go again, imposing your beliefs and morals unto others. fyi, while there are still people like you out there. there are more mature people who dont mind such strategies at all because it is still just a game and they have their own game plan.

i used play a lot of street basketball for money in my younger days. to some people, it was *polite* not to call fouls and just play out the games like true "warriors". these folks also find it *rude* if the winners turn down their double or nothing offer after they lose games. you remind me a lot about them, simply because they claimed that our style of play was boring and wasnt good for the cash game. guess what, me and my crew, we took their money on the regular.

we played uptempo-swarming D with outlet passing every opportunity type of basaketball - this is what our hs coach taught us. this strategy requires a lot of cardio and is quite draining. this is the reason why we play just 1 game everyday, that was the plan. We walked away exactly $250 richer($50 each) almost everyday for over 2 years. I dont think we would have had the same success if we grinded the way the other homies did. We werent as strong or as big as they were. And definitely not as experienced. We were just high school kids who were fast and had a plan.

"If you yourself are familiar with SSS, please do not hesitate on posting a reply. The aim of this post is to inform. More contributions means more information"

i am familiar with it. i didn't hesitate to post. and i contributed more information about. if you don't want to hear peoples opinion, then don't post in a public forum, it's not that difficult.

and i really don't care about basketball. have fun with your chart that tells you how to play poker.

[liladypokerpro]

Alright timeout now you two......this thread's base of information is good. Don't make Tony or Mollila close it due to a transpired arguement.

[abc]

"Avoid tables with a lot of raising/re-raising going on"
i could be wrong, but pretty sure you want a table with lots of raising and reraising. your goal is to get your chips in the middle after waiting around for a premium hand. if you're at a table with a bunch of nits you're not gonna get paid.

there is a big difference between a table with lots of raising going on and a table that calls alot. you obviously pick the later.

just to prove my point that SSS is very viable, I re-deposited $50 on my stagnant pokerstars account about a week ago. I've been 6 tabling the micro limits NLHE10 about 4-5 hours a day for the last 6 days. my initial deposit of $50 is now more than $160+ which means I am moving up to NLHE25 in less than a weeks time! the progress will probably slow down on the new level as I know it isnt as fishy as the previous one (I've played here before and there are alot of regulars who are on to the SSS)

i may or may not continue playing on pokerstars with SSS. but like i said on previous posts, its great for new player who wants to build a bankroll and get a feel of cash games online.

last advice, dont let other people's oppinion get the best of you. Be ruthless and cold on the felt, on the poker table, you have no friends. Thats a fact.

[Brooklynbum]

I know those SSS guys once they join the table. It's not a mystery to what they're doing.

I actually like it when they play. They don't play a lot of hands and when they push they've got something. Besides being so short stacked, I'm ready to gamble with them if I hit a decent flop because I know they're going to go all in anyway.

It's actually easier to play against these guys than a full buy-in guy. I know that I won't be risking much when I play a hand with them.

I call them the "hit and run" guys or the "luck and duck" players...they luck out and then they duck out.

I don't advocate this type of strategy but hey if it works for you so be it.

I personally don't like to play short stacked in a cash game situation but I can see where the strategy could work. I just don't think it works against good players though.

[abc]

i totally agree with you brooklynbum (no pun intended:-P)

an experienced player knows how to spot and play against such a strategy.
but in a world full of fishes, the strategy is a goldmine harvester on steroids. you just have to pick your tables right. like i said on a previous post, avoid tables with lots of raising and reraising. this is very important because the range of hands that the SSS players play usually wanna playagainst 1-2 opponents only. active tables usually creates big pots, which keep players in and generally weakens the SSS hand as more 5 card hands/suckouts are made. a perfect example would be the my AA which was busted by 78s the other day:

i made the mistake of sitting on a table of experienced regulars with deep stacks. i was bending my rules a bit as i wanted to catch them bluffing and i was attracted by the $(the table's average pot was quite hight)

anyway, here's what happened, NLHE10, PokerStars - I was in middle position 2, UTG limped in, I raised $0.50 (5x the BB)

the math is 4x BB + 1xBB per limper - this betting system gives the people behind me as well as the blinds and the limper bad pot odds and even worst implied odds to call the bet I made (since I am shortstacked). This fact is one of the main reasons why the SSS doenst work against experienced and/or well rounded thinking players and at the same time what is so good about SSS. New poker players - fishes - do not understand these values, so having them call your bets is addiotional +EV for you. When the SSS player gets involve in hands, they are usually ahead, good players know better to get involved in hands with them unless they have the appropriate odds - read as they are ahead against the SSS players hand range.

CO (deepstacked) called
BUTTON (deepstacked aswell) CALLED too!
SB called
BB called
UTG called

Pot = $3

It was all downhill from there. This was the worst scenario I could have wished for my rockets.

flop was Ks 9d Ts

SB checked, BB checked, UTG bet 5xBB into a 30x BB pot(weird bet, it turns out he was trying to buy a card cheap), I re-raise to 18x BB and was allin, donkey CO calls! BUTTON calls, the blinds fold. UTG thinks for a while then calls as well.

Pot = $10.20

Turn was 6d

UTG checked, and CO bets out $5, Button re-raises to $15, UTG calls for $4.15 and was allin. CO folds! wth i asked myself.

Pot: $24.35

River Ac

UTG shows 78s for a straight (straight and flush draw on the flop) to take down the pot.

Buttons had KdQd

Though I only lost about 23x BB, I believed that the CO had cost me the hand by cold calling me with probably nothing and his gambling partner (the Button) following suit thus giving the UTG the right odds to call.

To be fair, UTG and Button are regulars who multi table with Big Stack Strategy. So I dont really see their calls as donk ones

[SaneAsylum42]

The Shortstack Strategy does work, but if you're up to trying to take somone's money and run i suggest heads up at such a high limit that it will cause your bankroll to die if you lose. Try maybe $3/$6, sit down with your whole bankroll. When someone joins, they start with Big Blind. You simply steal their blind and leave. Most of the time when people settle into a heads up game they want to test the waters and find out who you are rather than gamble with you. So you take your $6 and your a happy fish. This will work more often than doubling up SSS 3 times in a row. And don't worry if your opponent has a monster hand for his first hand. If he does you have probably about a 25% chance of winning the all-in with your whole bankroll. If you still like the shortstack strategy, your crazy, but i can give you a few pointers.

Refill 15BB
Leave 25BB

But i really dont feel like it. Anyway most people should start the HU strategy at the .25/.50 tables but people fold more the first hand in the upper limits. I suggest depositing $300 minimum and playing 3/6. Word of advice, mark each player you ever do this to with the note feature so that you don't do this against someone who knows or remembers you. Please pm me with your success.

[C8H10N4O2]

^This has to be one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard. Gaining $6 risking your entire roll... LOL, this is terrible. Please do not do this.

[deathcard71]

^This has to be one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard. Gaining $6 risking your entire roll... LOL, this is terrible. Please do not do this.

ha ha, gamblers delight! you should direct him to the martingale system thread.

[C8H10N4O2]

ha ha, gamblers delight! you should direct him to the martingale system thread.

At least with the martingale, you have better odds lol. Somewhere between 45-50% chance to double your money. Heck you can just go and bet $6 to gain $6 as well instead of betting $300 to gain $6.

[frecklers]

What about just begging people to credit your account with $5?