JJ - Pre-flop query

[RiverstarsVictim]

$10 No Limit Hold'em - 10 players

UTG+2: $1.64
MP1: $10.24
MP2: $2.78
MP3: $2.37
CO: $8.50
BTN: $11.76
SB: $10.23
BB: $2.00
UTG: $4.78
Hero (UTG+1): $14.09

Pre Flop: Hero is UTG+1 with J J
UTG calls $0, Hero raises to $0.45, UTG+2 raises to $1.64 all in, 2 folds, MP3 calls $1.64, 2 folds, SB calls $1.64, 1 fold, UTG calls $1.64, Hero ,

As you can see, 1 all-in and lots of flat calls after my initial raise.

I really dont know whether I should be giving up here, raising or shoving. If I raise I've got no fold equity in later streets Vs SB. If I push I scare off SB who I really need in this pot as I could already be behind? Too much dead money already in the pot to fold?

Hope I can get some replies. I'll post the results later.

[frob23]

Man, I HATE these stack sizes.

There just isn't a whole hell of a lot left to go.

You're getting about 5.9-1 pot odds... so you're GOING to have to call. At the very least. And if you call, the only person who can move you off this hand is the SB and maybe UTG because everyone else is too short. And even UTG is only going to be able to push with a half-pot bet... so you're not really folding unless there's an Ace on this flop.

The question is... do we call or shove? JJ is almost certainly NOT the best hand out there. But we have odds to attempt to outdraw it. JJ is probably far ahead of SB and maybe UTG (although I am expecting a coin-flip and him to have AK or AQ). Since we're only playing against those two post-flop and we are ahead of their ranges... I might just be a tool and move in right here. If I get called by the SB or UTG player... great... I am probably getting it in good for the side pot.

If they both fold, I am still in for the main pot (and smaller side pots) and I have the correct odds to be an underdog... assuming a higher pair.

Edit: There is no room for a raise here. This pot is already going to be over $8 when you call so even a pot sized raise puts you all-in. This is a call or shove spot and I think shoving has more to it. I would never be folding here... especially with those odds and the fact that I am closing off the action.

Edit 2: A pot sized raise would be to something like $9.94... which leaves effective stacks of like 29c.

[Wyte22]

$10 No Limit Hold'em - 10 players

UTG+2: $1.64
MP1: $10.24
MP2: $2.78
MP3: $2.37
CO: $8.50
BTN: $11.76
SB: $10.23
BB: $2.00
UTG: $4.78
Hero (UTG+1): $14.09

Pre Flop: Hero is UTG+1 with J J
UTG calls $0, Hero raises to $0.45, UTG+2 raises to $1.64 all in, 2 folds, MP3 calls $1.64, 2 folds, SB calls $1.64, 1 fold, UTG calls $1.64, Hero ,

As you can see, 1 all-in and lots of flat calls after my initial raise.

I really dont know whether I should be giving up here, raising or shoving. If I raise I've got no fold equity in later streets Vs SB. If I push I scare off SB who I really need in this pot as I could already be behind? Too much dead money already in the pot to fold?

Hope I can get some replies. I'll post the results later.

I'm going to assume this is .05/.1 Cash game. Soo the pot is
$7.11 by the time it comes back to you. it is $1.19 to call, that's better than 5 to 1 on your money. Calling is +EV but Raising is more +EV and will reduce the number of people in the hand. and also, save you alot of money. If someone has bigger pair, i'd rather spend $4 Pre-flop than go broke in a low board, thinking my JJ is good. The best move here is hands down, Raising the pot. You do NOT need more than 2 others in the pot with you when you have JJ, way to much risk involved. There are still 3 overcard to your Jacks which can ruin your day. Plus, people could be flat calling with ATC (didn't give any reads on people, soo I'll figure they play like most .05/.1 yahoos). Soo you need a serious raise to let people know, you mean business and yes you got a hand. I'd re-raise it to $4.50 here. That makes almost EVERY SINGLE draw imaginable, not profitable for them to call. They'll be getting slightly better than 2 to 1 on their money, which you need 4 to 1 to call Flushes properly and 5 or 6 to 1 to call down str8 possibilites. The only real people who will call that raise, are people with hands like AK-AT, KQs-KJs, AA thru 99. If you do get a caller, you need to serious evaulate the flop and plan ahead for future bets, because there is no longer a pot size bet, it is now, all ins or fold.

That $4.50 will set most (excluding the SB) in a decision for most of their chips, MP3 is pot committed already, look for him to have A-x, KQ, JT or possibly AA thru TT. If the UTG calls your re-raise, he will have 26 cents left, soo expect him to push and you'll be getting like a gazillion to one odds to call his 26 cent all in into a $15 pot. If the SB re-raises all in tho, this is the point you need to decide, based on past history, the hands this guy has showndown and his style of play, am I good here? am I racing? is he trying to push me off my Jacks? What is he possibilly holding? What does he think I am holding? If I call, and ahead of SB and beat him but lose to the others, am I willing to risk that to chip up more? ( the Side pot with the SB will more than make up any losses you occur in the main and side pot #1).

I hope this helps some.

[frob23]

My problem with raising to $4.50 is that it's not big enough in this pot. You're only raising $2.86 and offering about 3.9-1 odds on the call. Which are almost good enough for most reasonable hands here. Your raise will put the pot at $11.16 (by my numbers -- which might be off by a dime) but are close enough for government work. And, if they call... it's pretty much $14 in the pot at the start (like you said) and folding $6.50 for $20 pot is hard to do... You're just asking for a real tough decision on the flop raising like that.

[Wyte22]

My problem with raising to $4.50 is that it's not big enough in this pot. You're only raising $2.86 and offering about 3.9-1 odds on the call. Which are almost good enough for most reasonable hands here. Your raise will put the pot at $11.16 (by my numbers -- which might be off by a dime) but are close enough for government work. And, if they call... it's pretty much $14 in the pot at the start (like you said) and folding $6.50 for $20 pot is hard to do... You're just asking for a real tough decision on the flop raising like that.

Your right on the odds but it makes two of the players really SERIOUSLY consider whether or not they wanna play in this pot because they know, if they call the $4.50 bet and they are wrong, they will be facing a potential all in situation ON THE FLOP. Also, for one of the players, calling the $4.50 will leave him with almost nothing. The other is pot committed on the flat call. If you re-raise to $4.50 and the SB re-raises all in, I think that's pretty easy to get away from, but if you raise more, and he re-raises, you're pot committed because you'll be putting over half your stack into the pot and the odds will be too incredibly good for you to even lay down 72 off suite! I thought $4.50 gave them good odds but made them think about coming into this pot still because, if they enter, they will face all ins. It seperates the people with suited connectors from the people who have a hand and can let you get away from JJ without incurring too much more cost.......you raise more, you lose your whole stack. This is just IMO though, I am not a big time cash game player, soo the thinking maybe different in cash games but tournament wise, this is the play i'd go with. I know in cash games, people are less afraid to go for broke cuz they can just rebuy np. but you gotta instill some fear without costing yourself entirely too much money to get away from this hand.

folding the 6.80 into the $20 pot is easy. If SB re-raises, he's basically saying "I got you, don't worry".....Your getting LESS than 3 to 1 odds on a VERY VERY likely, 4.5 to 1 underdog situation. Let's say you raise to $7 instead of $4.50. SB moves in, costing you $3.50 into a $22.50 pot. that's 6.4 to 1 odds, you must call, even the donkey with 72 off suite must call!!

[RiverstarsVictim]

If SB has better than JJ, isn't he raising himself to narrow the field?

[Wyte22]

If SB has better than JJ, isn't he raising himself to narrow the field?

Not necessarily. He could slow play AA KK and put the rest of his money in on the flop. This, in touranments, is called the stop and go play.
He calls, with several people already flat calling in front or behind him, and moving in on the flop.\

Sometimes you have to pay for information and this is most def. a situation where you need to re-raise for information. What happens if A J T is the flop and he is holding AA or KQ? Your shipping most of your stack to him! by re-raising him, he will define his hand more clearly for you. If he calls or shoves, he truly has a very strong hand and you need to be careful on the flop

[irishpkr]

I think 4betting here 'for information' is terrible (and always is). This is a pretty clear shove or fold spot, if we make a 4bet to $6 and get called, we've paid for the information with our stack, as we'll be pot committed.

For me I shove here- for one, I think it really makes a difference that the 3bettor is allin, if he had a full stack, there would be less 'protection' for people calling behind. Secondly, theres a ton of dead money out there.

To be fair I can't see either fold or shove being wrong here, someone could easily be slowplaying there

[frob23]

There is no way I am raising to $4.50 and folding to $5.50 more pre-flop. It was only $5.50 not $6.50 -- which was my addition mistake. In fact, he could show me the AA and I would probably still call. I'm being offered 4-1 on my money and it's a 4-1 shot to outdraw AA. If the UTG player calls, we easily have the equity in this hand to go in as a 4-1 dog.

I have my doubts about a larger pair here. I believe we are ahead of the SB and UTG or that they have misplayed their hands -- which is also incredibly plausible at these levels. This pot has become WAY too large to slow-play AA. There are people in and they should have just gone and picked it up. And if they didn't, you still have the odds.

If he has KQ... he's going to put all his money in pre-flop to try and hit that A-J-T flop... and if he does... more power to him. He gets most of my stack. If he called $4.50 or if he shoves... it doesn't matter what he has because the pot has become too large to get away from.

This is not a tournament. We don't worry about going broke here. We worry about which play makes the most money in the long run. The difference between a tournament and a cash game is that tournaments often force you to decline profitable plays if they are high risk (since losing will decline you the opportunity to make other profitable plays) but in a cash game, this is the only hand that matters. There are no better spots... we play the most profitable way we can. If that play results in us going broke 80% of the time... but offers a profitable return for the 20% of the time that we win (that makes up for the times we lose)... we take that play.

This play has NOTHING to do with instilling fear. This is about profit. I want to make the most money I can in this situation. I don't expect the SB or UTG to have J-J beat but if they do... I am still making money -- not a whole lot but I do believe I show a profit here. And since I don't expect them to have it beat... I am making even more money.

Nothing about fear or fold equity. In fact, I am hoping that both the SB and UTG call my shove. I want them in because I might not have UTG+2 beat... and they can help compensate for that. It's all about the hand ranges, pot odds, and so on. This pot is already far too large play on the flop with these stacks. It's best to get it in now when my hand is ahead of their range than to have to second-guess myself when they move on the flop -- which they're probably going to do.

I have all the information I need and won't be raising to find out more... I am raising in the hopes of getting more money. They limped, and flat called when they had really good odds to flat call... they haven't shown strength... I am going to have to assume they're just not that strong or have misplayed their hands so badly that even if they are strong, I am right to get all the money in against them.


Note: One very important thing to do is to avoid playing BIG pots without a BIG hand. And we don't have a BIG hand here. But we have been put in a spot where it can be profitable to play the cards we have because the price we are being offered is too high to turn it down... even if we know we're a dog to win.

[Wyte22]

There is no way I am raising to $4.50 and folding to $5.50 more pre-flop. It was only $5.50 not $6.50 -- which was my addition mistake. In fact, he could show me the AA and I would probably still call. I'm being offered 4-1 on my money and it's a 4-1 shot to outdraw AA. If the UTG player calls, we easily have the equity in this hand to go in as a 4-1 dog.

I have my doubts about a larger pair here. I believe we are ahead of the SB and UTG or that they have misplayed their hands -- which is also incredibly plausible at these levels. This pot has become WAY too large to slow-play AA. There are people in and they should have just gone and picked it up. And if they didn't, you still have the odds.

If he has KQ... he's going to put all his money in pre-flop to try and hit that A-J-T flop... and if he does... more power to him. He gets most of my stack. If he called $4.50 or if he shoves... it doesn't matter what he has because the pot has become too large to get away from.

This is not a tournament. We don't worry about going broke here. We worry about which play makes the most money in the long run. The difference between a tournament and a cash game is that tournaments often force you to decline profitable plays if they are high risk (since losing will decline you the opportunity to make other profitable plays) but in a cash game, this is the only hand that matters. There are no better spots... we play the most profitable way we can. If that play results in us going broke 80% of the time... but offers a profitable return for the 20% of the time that we win (that makes up for the times we lose)... we take that play.

This play has NOTHING to do with instilling fear. This is about profit. I want to make the most money I can in this situation. I don't expect the SB or UTG to have J-J beat but if they do... I am still making money -- not a whole lot but I do believe I show a profit here. And since I don't expect them to have it beat... I am making even more money.

Nothing about fear or fold equity. In fact, I am hoping that both the SB and UTG call my shove. I want them in because I might not have UTG+2 beat... and they can help compensate for that. It's all about the hand ranges, pot odds, and so on. This pot is already far too large play on the flop with these stacks. It's best to get it in now when my hand is ahead of their range than to have to second-guess myself when they move on the flop -- which they're probably going to do.

I have all the information I need and won't be raising to find out more... I am raising in the hopes of getting more money. They limped, and flat called when they had really good odds to flat call... they haven't shown strength... I am going to have to assume they're just not that strong or have misplayed their hands so badly that even if they are strong, I am right to get all the money in against them.


Note: One very important thing to do is to avoid playing BIG pots without a BIG hand. And we don't have a BIG hand here. But we have been put in a spot where it can be profitable to play the cards we have because the price we are being offered is too high to turn it down... even if we know we're a dog to win.

Your absolutely right Shove or fold is neither bad plays but fold is slightly -EV because there's only 3 pairs your 4.5 to 1 underdog to. Shove is only slightly +EV because the range could possibly include smaller pocket pairs. We don't know because we don't have a read on ANY of our viillians. without the reads, we can't make a very true read of the situation. But you are absolutely right but I still believe you need to instill a fear into the flat callers because JJ IS a big game hand BUT Not against multiple callers.

I'd do with what Frob said Riverstars He's absolutely right. I just think you need to take into consideration any reads, history or notes you have on any players involved in this before you decide to risk the majority of your stack.

[frob23]

Note: I start a lot of messages with Note:

Anyway, I was going to say that I don't fault someone for folding here. We have only invested 45c, there has been a lot of action, and I know a lot of people don't want to play a $10 pot with JJ. I still believe that shoving will give you the greatest return. But if shoving and losing will hurt your bankroll, put you on tilt, or otherwise have negative effects... fold.

I do not believe we are a favorite to win the main pot. I am going to assume that UTG+1 has us beat. I believe the pot is offering us the right price to try and suck-out and that the other players might even offer more value. But I can still see why people might lean towards folding since they know they're not the favorite to win.

That said, if you came to me and offered me 10-1 that I couldn't roll a 5 on a single dice (die), I would play all day long even if I was losing the vast majority of the time.

[Boilermaker]

JJ to me is not a very strong hand at a 10man table, as the people decrease it becomes stronger, like from 6man to HU.
If I were playing on a tight table, I might then raise in EARLY position with JJ preflop.
But 10 handed JJ in early position is just a limp from me most times, especially at low stakes where some will roll the dice with A+rags, just too much action to follow you in early position.
Late position preferribly button with JJ will get a raise from me more often, depending on the table action.

But once you get yourself in a situation like this, i would not push just yet because most the others will call with a wide range of hands. Your best bet is to call and see the flop. and If Im first to act after flop with no overcards flopping, then prolly push time, depending on type of players in hand. but be prepared to get a call as a few are pretty much pot committed and will call with AK most times.

[RiverstarsVictim]

Maybe I should've added this to opening post so better late than never.

I had been on this table for about an hour. For the most part it had been a typically daytime (UK time) bogstandard table. Mostly lots of limping and mostly small pots and as such, didnt really warrant a lot of concentration on my part. Being more a night time player there was only 1 player in the pot I had anything on, about 300 hands on SB with a VPIP 16% and PFR 8%, no notes. Most of the short stacks were new to the table. Normally I would avoid so many shortstacks but on this occasion no need to leave a table where I'm doing ok.

[irishpkr]

But once you get yourself in a situation like this, i would not push just yet because most the others will call with a wide range of hands.

So you DON'T want to get allin against a 'wide range' as you say? The wider the calling range, the more value in pushing, DUCY?

[Wyte22]

I guess I need to play more full ring games because I thought that JJ even 10 handed is a VERY strong hand (PF, the 4th strongest hand to have).

[Boilermaker]

at loose tables, such as low stakes on FULL 9 or 10 man...JJ from early position raising and being reraised strongly with 2 callers before it gets back to me, My JJ needs help, A push isn't going to work from here , most shortstacks that are pot committed at this point are calling the preflop allin , in my experiences . I have just seen way too times someone catch JJ and play it like they just won the lottery only to get stuck on river with a mediocore pocket pair.
I have won many pots with JJ, nothing at all wrong with them if played properly.
I can remember when i first started playing, I would get in coinflip preflop races with my big pocket pair from any position and quickly found out even if I flipped over the top pair , when you have several opponents calling with over cards and suited connectors,,,,, cards like 1010 and JJ usually are not holding up.
Lots of differant things do come in to factor, without this it makes it hard to say how one would acually play any hand.
This is just my feeling in general about JJ from early position at full low stakes 9man 10man action.
If it were a tourney and I had the chipstack I'd be in more of a push situation, hoping to induce the elimination of prolly half of the short stacks, even if 1 ss wins and eliminates the other 2.
All said, if we all played EXACTLY them same, wouldn't it be boring? Therefor never get stuck playing any combination of 2 cards a certain way. Mix it up, change those gears and keep the competition guessing.

[Wyte22]

I am such a ><> lol


I sit at a cash table and people say "OMGZ the SUPA DONK HATH ARRIVED!! HIDE THE WOMEN AND STACKS!!"

[snipermcgees]

With so many people just calling the shortstack's all-in, the other hands look a lot like big Ax and Kx hands, as well as medium pairs and drawing type hands.

If there are lot of big Ax calling, then you're in better shape than a normal coinflip against an opponent that will call, because they were holding each other's outs (i.e. your JJ vs. AQo vs. A10s vs. KQo). They will also be less likely to spike an Ace on the flop and continue in the hand. You are about 4:1 over other medium pairs.

I would shove pre-flop in this spot and hope that one of the other sizeable stacks doesn't hold a bigger pair. You don't want to take a big pair into a multi-way pot if you can avoid it.

(Just as a side note, this is obviously a special situation because of the shortstacks and I am not advocating pushing JJ multiway in general.)

[RiverstarsVictim]

Not sure the final result is necessary here but here goes. I pushed as I had no reason to believe I'm behind, nobody showed strength. I thought I was possibly behind initial re-raiser but ahead of all callers. A couple Ax's favour me, less chance of them hitting. If SB or UTG had me beat then unlucky, make note. Not often I get to push with JJ, hopefully notes were taken. Thanks for all replies.


The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

UTG+2: $1.64
MP1: $10.24
MP2: $2.78
MP3: $2.37
CO: $8.50
BTN: $11.76
SB: $10.23
BB: $2.00
UTG: $4.78
Hero (UTG+1): $14.09

Pre Flop: ($0.00) Hero is UTG+1 with J J
UTG calls $0, Hero raises to $0.45, UTG+2 raises to $1.64 all in, 2 folds, MP3 calls $1.64, 2 folds, SB calls $1.64, 1 fold, UTG calls $1.64, Hero raises to $14.09 all in, MP3 calls $0.73 all in, 2 folds

Flop: ($9.66) 8 Q 7 (3 players - 3 are all in)

Turn: ($9.66) 3 (3 players - 3 are all in)

River: ($9.66) Q (3 players - 3 are all in)

Please note...obviously I dont advocate pushing JJ...but sometimes circumstances dictate. If stacks were deeper then I'm sure either call or fold.

Thanks to all who advised.


**edit**

For some reason the end result is screwed...Pokerheaven vs partypoker conversion vs deucescracked

Hero shows [ Jh, Js ] two pairs, queens and jacks.
Hero wins $11.72 from side pot#2 with two pairs, queens and jacks.
Hero wins $1.22 from side pot#1 with two pairs, queens and jacks.
Hero wins $8.06 from the main pot with two pairs, queens and jacks

[frob23]

Nice hand. We'll never know but if UTG or SB folded KQs or AQ... you made a a lot of money you would have otherwise lost. We don't know what they had but that was a good result from shoving here.

Edit: Not that the results matter. If they called with KQ and you lost, I would still believe the shove was right here.