Ok what about this fold?

[Krahsami]

Knowing the right time to fold is extremely important in a tournament especially around the bubble (cut off position before you make $). I was once in a hand and looked down at AA. we are exactly at the bubble.
I knew a half decent player before me raised 3 X blind. I got aces and am deep I want action been waiting all tourney for this. I min raise 2 hands over an extremely tight player goes all in covering me other guy calls I m pot committed and short stacked with AA with maybe 7 blinds left I Love it. Wrong

Board ends up with four hearts on board First postion shows JJ I show AA she shows AA with the A high flush knocking us both out. Problem here is that JJ had more $ than me and beats me because of it giving him prize $ and me the bubble. You see I was greedy. Are you mad you say you got in best. no I got in tied. But logically If I folded here and let some I know to be a tight person take out JJ I would have made $ and not JJ. SICK I know but think about it.
It's honestly true also. I learned something that day though.

Table image in this hand is important Im extremely tight at time against aggressive big blind.
Im on the bubble 30 ppl place and were at 31. I know hes agressive he knows Im tight and short stacked and were on the bubble. Ive learned a lesson as I said. This isn't a freeroll either been trying a tourney or 2 lately. so its my $ and bubble against agressive type player.
Easy fold knowing this info and prior bad experiences gave me a placing of 21 instead of 31 for folding this.

Table #10707983 - Tournament #6965898 Table #2
Starting Hand #532821016
Start time of hand: 30 Sep 2008 00:54:26
Last Hand #532820291
Game Type: HOLD'EM
Limit Type: NO LIMIT
Table Type: TOURNAMENT
Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS
Blinds are now $400/$800
Button is at seat 6
Seat 1: woodsy55 - $20,386
Seat 2: waylay - $8,315
Seat 4: sbar93 - $12,543
Seat 5: Misch01 - $2,411
Seat 6: Mullallymu - $4,148
Moving Button to seat 1
woodsy55 posts ante of $100
waylay posts ante of $100
sbar93 posts ante of $100
Misch01 posts ante of $100
Mullallymu posts ante of $100
waylay posts small blind ($400)
sbar93 posts big blind ($800)
Shuffling Deck
Dealing Cards
Dealing [Qd Kc] to waylay
Misch01 did not respond in time and is folded
Misch01 folds
Mullallymu folds
woodsy55 folds
waylay: OMG if I wasnt at a bubble position Id push ya in
waylay folds and shows [Qd Kc]
sbar93 doesn't show
sbar93 wins $1,300
Seat 1: woodsy55 - $20,286
Seat 2: waylay - $7,815
Seat 4: sbar93 - $13,343
Seat 5: Misch01 - $2,311
Seat 6: Mullallymu - $4,048
End Of Hand #532821016

Are you mad you say again? heads up short stacked blind on blind at a 6 person table with KQ? No im on the bubble against an agressive type person that knows we are on the bubble and covers me, If I covered him its different.If I flat call he is going to steal it knowing I wouldnt call with AA even(because I know now), Im not stupid enough to push my stack in with this hand so there's only one option. So I folded my small blind saving 400$ Why? think about WHY? I surrender my blind and place for sure no variables involved and get the button next and maybe some one at another table knocked out. I coulda used that stack and a double up badly there But why honest? you can gamble or you can pick a sure thing and not gamble but play. Again KQ is one of the most over rated hands in poker. A 2 is beating you preflop let alone 22 AK AQ.

Patience grasshopper. Id rather push with Ace 2 here than my hand but id rather fold Ace 2 first.

But with my stack at them blinds and antes if we were at 30 ppl and not 31 I woulda had to push him in and gamble then. I think he would have folded with my table image. And yes I would have been bluffing and scared of any Ace. But at the same time statistically blind on blind at those blinds and antes it woulda been time to shove that hand and use my image against him and steal his blind for once and not his against me at position 30 not 31. Sick I know.
But honestly to me KQ woulda been stealing and gambling even then.

Knowing when to fold will make you $ and save you $.

[phosphorescence]

don't agree at all.

don't see any way i'm NOT shoving here - 5 handed, 10xBB, what are you waiting for?
screw the bubble, if you don't play hands like this then you're giving away too many chips and won't be able to take a shot at first place (where all the money is).
i swear the first few places paid are just pathetic it's hardly worth playing for them. i'm never laying a hand this strong down 5 handed when there's no action before me.

i'm of the opinion that people put much too much emphasis on making the money, even if it's just a few measly dollars more than their entry fee. though i must admit i've been guilty of it when playing long structured tournaments where you don't want to have wasted 3 hours or whatever for nothing.
in the turbo 90 man tournies i often play i don't even think about 'making the money' if it means laying down a big hand, though again on a negative side if you've been running badly for a while you just wanna get back into the dough.

oh yeah and the aces you didn't do anything wrong either - folding after you've reraised is laughable, and you're only coming up against AA a fraction of the time. most of the time you have AK crushed and have to dodge a pocket pair hitting trips.

you have to make some gambles in tournament poker, otherwise you'll very rarely win or make any decent money.

just my 'two sense'

edit: i've just found a couple of other things you said which bother me: 'If I flat call he is going to steal it knowing I wouldnt call with AA even(because I know now)' - this is just insane. no need to say any more lol - just because you had a bad experience with AA doesn't mean you should stop playing it on the bubble.

also 'Id rather push with Ace 2 here than my hand but id rather fold Ace 2 first.'
personally i'd be much happier pushing with KQ, as you're much more likely to get called by an A8 than a K8, which would put you in a bit of trouble.
plus KQ v A2 is like 55/45 or something, very close indeed.

[HeyKidMove]

I would definitely be pushing the KQ hand. You're going to get called by a lot worse and a lot of hands that you dominate. You're also only a slight underdog against a weak ace. Very rarely are you going to run into a hand that dominates you. You only have about 10X BB, so you should be pushing. You can't just play to make the money, you should be playing for the win. If that means going out on the bubble then so be it. It sucks to bubble, but barely making the money isn't much better. IMO, you have to play for the win, and folding in that spot is definitely not.

[Krahsami]

You know what honestly if that was 32 position maybe.52nd position for sure. But I have bubbled more than once and that is the worst feeling there is. To me pushing KQ is gambling plain and simple. I don't want to be a possible under dog. I didn't feel like gambling, I've gambled before and lost, So why gamble? When I can pick a sure thing. Hmmm possibly bubble out to steal one big blind? No thanks myself, The only thing hes going to call with is a strong hand. What happens when I run into AK AQ there then? 99 or A 2 even and I miss? Nothing. what happens in the same scenario when you call? You bubble out? why because you gambled. I'm not saying your ways are wrong, But I prefer my way honest because I'm not letting that happen again like I have in the past.

Id been waiting to hit that guy up a long time too. But id been waiting longer to place. I made $ for folding a hand no matter what. No variables or gambling involved. I am in good position to hit a final table with another possible KQ or A2 and a double up still later on, and I got the button now. I only have to worry about antes and a good hand. Yes I lost 500, but $8,315 would be worse in this position. I actually pushed on my next Big blind with AJ
got in best but got out drawn. You know what though? I went out with AJ not KQ. I also gained 2 more prize positions since every 4 PPl they went up.

personally i'd be much happier pushing with KQ, as you're much more likely to get called by an A8 than a K8, which would put you in a bit of trouble.
plus KQ v A2 is like 55/45 or something, very close indeed.

Youd still be getting in as a dog though. 55/45 is gambling if you ask me. If A2 calls you and not AK AQ though. Just because hes a blind doesn't mean he doesn't have a hand. Which would put you in a bit of trouble. Do you honestly want to bubble out as a dog? honestly?

I would still pick the A 2 myself over KQ As I said this hand is over rated if you ask me.
Even if 23 suited calls ya. he's still got a chance to beat KQ

I also have to agree I would have to play AA but I still wouldn't like it.

[Wyte22]

ok let's examine the situation.

Your M is around 4.4, but your effective M is less (your still red zoned soo figuring it up is moot). Everyone has folded to you in the SB, with $7815 effective stack. The BB has 11.6K effective stack, which you have over half his stack and can punish him big time if he calls an all in from the SB.

This is a point in the tourney, where you need to decide, do you wanna win it or do you just wanna survive into the cash or a higher cash spot? If you just wanna survive, your play is good, solid and respectable. But if you wanna win it, you need to recgonize situations like this as opportunites to take the blinds and antes and increase your chip stack. You have soo much working FOR you in this hand. If you all in with KQo, your over 58% to win against any random two cards! The BB would lose over 60% of his chips if he calls and LOSES the all in against you (effectivly making you 2nd place in chip count and making 3 short stacks!). This is an all in attempt to steal any day. Only 4 hands you worry about, AA, KK, QQ or AK. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much other stuff you beat. If you've been loose and aggressive he will open up his range to include stuff like QJs, QTs, maybe KJs (or o), stuff that you have completely dominated! If you've been playing tight (which it seems like), he will more than likely respect the all in and not see it as a steal. He would see you have a legitmate hand, because your THE short stack at the table, so therefore you are not desperate.

All IN is really the only play here .v. the BB. Calling give BB free look at flop......any raise leaves you pot committed to seeing the hand all the way down.......Get your money in first and let the gap concept convenice him that given your a tight player, he should just fold alot of stuff he'd normally call.

Soo Step 1: All in

Step 3 : profit!

[liladypokerpro]

I'm pretty much on the same thought level as phospho and wyte on this one...

But even though you did fold, why on earth show it??? That is giving away way too much free and vital information at this point in the tournament...

[Krahsami]

But as soon as I hear calll I know I have to get lucky and have just bubbled more than likely and wasted a couple hours. When I play I don't want to have to get lucky I want to be best if Possible and with a high degree a certainty. KQ is not the hand ppl make it out to be When really thought about. Id be scared of 22 even let alone any other Pocket Pair. Ive seen people push 33 at the end stages of a tourney.

I showed him and the others to enforce my table image. So that when I did make my move after bubble It would have that free information attached to it to it.

I got about 7 G roughly in with AJ later. That would have done it also, Id be at the final table then. I also got in best. Even getting 6.5 IN with an A 2 is a better chance than KQ push at the bubble to pick up one stupid big blind and antes.

I honestly think KQ is a gamble to almost any 2 cards in the deck even if you are ahead. Best you can hope to see is he has a matching card like KJ QJ anything else is still not to much of a dog

Like I said Id rather have A2 first, Id rather have 22 first. my table image probably would have made him fold but His table image made him likely to call even with a weaker hand. You guys can gamble if you want. I don't like the sound of 58% myself. but i'll definitely take the sure thing and position. Plus the shot at the final table.

When I did gamble later on I got knocked out. Even with the best hand.

[frob23]

Let's look at this from a pure math perspective. You're discounting your hand value too much here. When you're being called by strong hands only -- you have high fold equity... and when you're being called by weaker hands... you have lower (but still high fold equity) and higher equity from the hand itself.

The pot is $1,700.

There are four possibilities (we're never calling here, it's shove or fold).
If you fold, you are left with $7,815
If you shove and he folds, you are left with $9,515
If you shove and he calls and you lose, you are left with $0
If you shove and he calls and you win, you are left with $16,930

If he calls 70.4% of the time (you say he's loose and that's about as loose as they come), against that range you have 59.105% equity.

29.6% of the time you are left with $9,515 [$2,816.44 equity]
41.6% of the time you are left with $16,930 [$7,044.56 equity]
28.8% of the time you are left with $0 [$0 equity]
-----
$9,861.00 from shoving > $7,815 --- easy shove (26% increase in stack size)

This is a wide calling range... he's calling with hands like T6o and 43s. Which is a really unreasonable range but certainly about as wide as they come.

If he calls with 34.5% of his hands (any pair and most high cards... every Ace but A4-2, against this range you have 52.274% equity:

65.5% of the time you are left with $9,515 [$6,232.33 equity]
18.0% of the time you are left with $16,930 [$3,053.24 equity]
16.5% of the time you are left with $0 [$0 equity]
-----
$9,285.57 total equity from shoving > $7,815 -- easy shove (19% increase in stack size)

If he calls 10.3% of the time (extremely tight and with hands that have you in real bad shape, you only have 39.404% equity:

89.7% of the time you are left with $9,515 [$8,534.96 equity]
4.1% of the time you are left with $16,930 [$687.12 equity]
6.2% of the time you are left with $0 [$0 equity]
-----
$9,222.08 total equity from shoving > $7,815 -- easy shove (18% increase in stack size)


This is the gamut from the absolute loosest reasonable player -- playing too loose to be profitable -- to the absolute tightest player -- playing too tight to be profitable... and including a reasonable player. In every single case, it's an easy and obvious shove. If you're passing on hands that will offer you a 20% return in a tournament... you're giving up too much to do well.

You can't discount your fold equity. Even if he's calling with any two cards (where you have no fold equity), you're getting $10,404.50 from your bet here... which is a 33% increase in your stack size. So without any fold equity, you have an easy shove... and when you add in fold equity... you're still getting an easy shove with this hand once you factor in fold equity and your chances of winning as well.

At no point should you be folding this hand. If you're playing in a buy-in where making the money means something, you're playing in tournaments that are too large for your bankroll. If you want to make money, you need to go deep and passing up on equity as high as this (you'll be putting your chips in with a lot less equity than +20% many times in a tournament) is not going to work for you.

Edit: If he calls with any two cards... you're only going broke 38.5% of the time. If he calls with less than that, you're going broke much less than that. Only 28.8% of the time if he's very loose... and as low as 6.2% of the time if he's really tight. This is not a risky shove... it's a mathematically essential shove.

Edit 2: If he calls with QQ, KK, AA, AKs, and AKo (and nothing else) you're getting $9,267.61 (or more since you have a K and a Q -- just from folds) and $91.34 from winning with KQ against that range... $9,358.95 is obviously still more than enough to shove into that possible range.

Edit 3: This is an unexploitable shove... meaning there is no range of hands that other player can call with or fold with that you won't show a profit against -- with one player remaining behind you and these stacks with this pot. You can't pass on unexploitable shoves.

[Krahsami]

I knew this guy might call In the above scenario. so I didnt gamble. end story. Because i knew he might. I'm positive you guys would have called this then because your all into the mathamatics an all. And there's no way to make the final table by folding these type hands. It more than just math.

Table #10726802 - Tournament #6975884 Table #33
Starting Hand #533746081
Start time of hand: 30 Sep 2008 23:44:51
Last Hand #533744786
Game Type: HOLD'EM
Limit Type: NO LIMIT
Table Type: TOURNAMENT
Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS
Blinds are now $1,500/$3,000
Button is at seat 3
Seat 1: NorthernLad - $59,236
Seat 2: waylay - $14,340
Seat 4: gryf777 - $5,940
Seat 5: n1Ce1308 - $12,520
Seat 6: CaptainGozra - $6,860
Seat 8: Selko89 - $18,184
Seat 9: vibes927 - $63,543
Seat 10: Schregorius - $10,317
Moving Button to seat 4
NorthernLad posts ante of $300
waylay posts ante of $300
gryf777 posts ante of $300
n1Ce1308 posts ante of $300
CaptainGozra posts ante of $300
Selko89 posts ante of $300
vibes927 posts ante of $300
Schregorius posts ante of $300
vibes927 says well played.
n1Ce1308 posts small blind ($1,500)
CaptainGozra posts big blind ($3,000)
Shuffling Deck
Dealing Cards
Dealing [As Js] to waylay
Selko89 folds
NorthernLad says yes.
vibes927 calls $3,000
Schregorius folds
NorthernLad raises to $12,000
vibes927 suggests you bring it on.
waylay can't believe it.
NorthernLad smiles.
waylay folds
gryf777 folds
n1Ce1308 folds
NorthernLad becomes a snake charmer.
CaptainGozra is thinking.
CaptainGozra calls $6,560 (all-in)
CaptainGozra: i gotta
NorthernLad can't believe it.
vibes927 calls $12,000
Dealing Flop [9s Jd Kh]
vibes927 checks
NorthernLad checks
Dealing Turn [9c]
vibes927 checks
NorthernLad bets $9,000
vibes927 calls $9,000
Dealing River [7h]
vibes927 checks
NorthernLad bets $24,000
vibes927 calls $24,000
NorthernLad shows [7c 7d]
NorthernLad has Full House, 7s over 9s
gryf777 can't believe it.
vibes927 mucks
NorthernLad wins $76,880 from side pot #1 with: Full House, 7s over 9s
CaptainGozra: i can
CaptainGozra mucks
NorthernLad wins $23,580 with: Full House, 7s over 9s
NorthernLad smiles.
Seat 1: NorthernLad - $114,396
Seat 2: waylay - $14,040
Seat 4: gryf777 - $5,640
Seat 5: n1Ce1308 - $10,720
Seat 6: CaptainGozra - $0
Seat 8: Selko89 - $17,884
Seat 9: vibes927 - $18,243
Seat 10: Schregorius - $10,017
End Of Hand #533746081

See the guy that mucked vibes927 I know for 90 % sure beat my JA . When stuff like waylay cant believe it happens these are emoticaons in the game.

NorthernLad says yes. this is an emote. hes giving free tells saying he has a hand
Vibes limps in
Now this happens
NorthernLad raises to $12,000
vibes927 suggests you bring it on. another emote telling me basically hes got a big PP probably AA with the way he plays and hes trapping him.
Notice after this emote I fold I also know for sure he Had AK or AA to call all those bets down. It's not even that when you start getting 3 other in the pot even AJ is just a Dog hand that is a gamble.

You know what else I used my $ with better cards at another time and my image and brought what I had saved left to a final table later. Even in the other case I woulda got 7 G in best later on at a time I was more sure. In this case here I was almost positive I was beat by guy that mucked. Very tight sneaky player

This my hand later on using even that little amount I had at the time left more wisely not just doing math but also using table image and playstyle in the calculations. In that hand above I know I had to get lucky and gamble. I dont like getting lucky or gambling. I do the math like all of yous. I also add the extra variables in.

Table #10726821 - Tournament #6975884 Table #52
Starting Hand #533776654
Start time of hand: 01 Oct 2008 00:25:48
Last Hand #533776033
Game Type: HOLD'EM
Limit Type: NO LIMIT
Table Type: TOURNAMENT
Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS
Blinds are now $5,000/$10,000
Button is at seat 8
Seat 1: Selko89 - $31,740
Seat 4: NorthernLad - $218,292
Seat 5: 1pokersaint - $40,899
Seat 6: waylay - $19,458
Seat 8: MovaFoka - $87,773
Seat 9: pablo100 - $189,258
Seat 10: pelegrin27 - $101,380
Moving Button to seat 9
Selko89 posts ante of $1,000
NorthernLad posts ante of $1,000
1pokersaint posts ante of $1,000
waylay posts ante of $1,000
MovaFoka posts ante of $1,000
pablo100 posts ante of $1,000
pelegrin27 posts ante of $1,000
pelegrin27 says thank you.
pelegrin27 posts small blind ($5,000)
Selko89 posts big blind ($10,000)
Shuffling Deck
Dealing Cards
Dealing [As 9h] to waylay
burdi1: i wanted olso that but JJ is not very good hands to winn
NorthernLad folds
1pokersaint folds
waylay raises to $18,458 (all-in)
MovaFoka folds
pablo100 folds
pelegrin27 chuckles.
pelegrin27 folds
Selko89 calls $18,458
Selko89 shows [Jc 8h]
waylay shows [As 9h]
Dealing Flop [5s 8d 8c]
waylay can't believe it.
Dealing Turn [Qd]
Dealing River [Td]
waylay has One Pair: 8s
Selko89 has Three of a Kind: 8s
Selko89 wins $48,916 with: Three of a Kind: 8s
Seat 1: Selko89 - $61,198
Seat 4: NorthernLad - $217,292
Seat 5: 1pokersaint - $39,899
Seat 6: waylay - $0
Seat 8: MovaFoka - $86,773
Seat 9: pablo100 - $188,258
Seat 10: pelegrin27 - $95,380
End Of Hand #533776654

Giving me 7 th place. Got in best cant do no more. But I gambled here and lost.
hmmmmm any chip leaders names up there look familar? except he woulda had a little more $

So 41 minutes later and a whole new month I'm sitting at the final table because I did the math also, Not because I got in best with AJ when I needed it most. Because i got my $ in best even though there was very little left and didn't put it in gambling on odds. I used it at times I was more certain I could win. And didn't lose it hoping on AJ when I knew it was behind to start with.

[frob23]

Except that sometimes it is just about the math. When it comes to unexploitable shoves, there is no "play" to it. No one can outplay you... you're not outplaying anyone... you have the numbers solidly on your side. This isn't an "image" issue or even a "feel" issue. It's about equity and you're giving up far too much by not shoving there.

AJ with a call and a raise of most of my stack in front of me, easy fold. That's not even close to being the same scenario. Here we have no fold-equity and an easily dominated Ace. You'd have to be high to call/shove here.

And the A9o hand with less than 2xBB... obvious open-shove in that spot. Neither of those hands relate to the hand in the original post.


Edit: Why even post a hand if you're going to deny what everyone has to say about it?

[Krahsami]

I had 10 X bb left up there and have to shove it was what every one tells me.
well I got even less here. You guys can do it whatever way you want.
I shoved in 7 G later on with the best hand in 21rst position and got outdrawn is the way I played it. Id also play it the exact same way again.

Yes the scenario is different I agree. And yes AJ is an obvious fold here.

What I am trying to say Is I don't like gambling and if I do I want the odds on my side not be unsure. You see the odds were on my side but I was still unsure. The word says it all unsure. I like certainties. I dont think you need good luck in poker as much as you need to not get unlucky. When I start hearing percentages like 58% I cant even think about playing like that. That's not my style of poker. You guys maybe like it but I honestly don't.
Like I said we all play differently. All I know is that it seems to work for me so I have to stick with it.

[frob23]

Having 10xBB is also why it's a shove. Having that much, especially with the opponent's stack, increases your fold-equity. Of course, if you had less it would probably still be a shove (I would need to recrunch the numbers but KQ is good enough to shove with much less).

But, while you have less with the AJ hand, you have no fold-equity and every reason to believe your Ace is dominated.

Now... don't get me wrong. I would love it if poker was a game of certainty and not gambling. But it is gambling and the skill component is not in flopping the nuts... it's in the numbers and playing in a way that gives you the most equity. If you are making plays that have lower equity, then you're going to make less money than you should. Sometimes that involves risk... it's true but that's where your skill comes in... when you know what risks are worth it and which ones to avoid.

[Wyte22]

What I am trying to say Is I don't like gambling and if I do I want the odds on my side not be unsure.

Please quit poker now No offense bro, but just what I bolded and underlined is reason enough for you to stop playing If you don't like gambling then why play? Even if your 93% to win, that means your opp is 7% to suckout. Even though you have the odds in your favor, there is always a chance you will lose. Only thing in poker that is 100% to win, is a royal flush, no one can suckout on that! Sometimes you have to take risks with almost break even odds, espically when the math and reads call for it. If your not willing, and capable of taking those risks and understanding that sometimes, you will be knocked out......then you won't make it very far in poker.

The hand where the river came a 7 and gave your opp a FH, you played it good, but you got unlucky. Nothing you can do about that. He was only like 5-7% on river to win, he caught a 2 outer, there is absolutely nothing you can do about that. But you still gambled and he gambled to and over the long run, your gamble will pay off ALOT more than his gamble will.

The 2nd hand, Your ALL-IN is sound, and he called with 2 live cards (his call was alittle against odds but I think he was just calling to try and eliminate another player). You gambled there. You got called by a weaker hand, who made a stronger hand, GG ship it, tip your hat and hit the rail.

Lastly, I wanna ask, how do you always know if the odds are on your side? are you talking about pot odds, hand odds, implied odds? There is nothing that is absolutely certain in poker, you take the math, your read from your opp, figure out whether or not the tells he/she is giving off are real tells or false tells, and other factors, you come to the best possible range of hands your opp could be on and what decision makes the most sense given all the factors (including math). There will be times your AK will get called by 77 or 22....where you are a 52-48 underdog, that's a fact of life, you got to live with the fact that your not ALWAYS going to get your money in ahead by a good margin.

There's more to poker than hands. Situations, players, stacks, tournament progression and where YOU want to finish are all factors you need to take into consideration when making plays.

Sorry If I seem little bit of an ass about it, but until you realize that you do gamble and your odds will not always be good, you will not have good and lasting success at poker and I want everyone I meet, to grow, and learn and become better players everyday. I know I don't know everything in poker and probably won't, but I make an effort everyday to learn something new I didn't know the previous day, whether it is a stat on win % of AA .v. Top 10% hands (over 84%) or whether it is the correct play is given all the certain factors in a situation that I can recall to use later on, given all the conditions are same as the first situation.

[frob23]

One last thing and then I am done. I would promise but we all know it would probably be a lie.

The Sklansky-Karlson hand rankings provide an upper-number for what you can shove from the SB (when it's folded to you) against the BB and always show a profit. What this means is if you were to shove and then turn your hand face up, so he would only call you with a hand that is ahead of yours... you would still show a profit as long as your shove was less than this upper bound for that hand.

For KQo that number is about 29.3 big blinds. You could shove up to 29.3 big blinds, turn over your hand so that he only calls when ahead, and you will still show a profit with KQo. The fewer big blinds you have, the more correct your shove becomes. Of course, the addition of antes improves your profitability even more because you win more from the folds as well as have increased equity in the pot when you're called.

Of course, you're not showing your hand... so he's going to be calling with either fewer hands or more hands than he should. If he calls with fewer, you show a profit. If he calls with more, you still show a profit. If he calls with the exact right amount... you still show a profit. This is why it's considered an unexploitable shove. Personally, shoving almost 30xBB with KQo is a bit much for me but it's mathematically acceptable.

But... for this reason, it's even more clear that we must be shoving with KQo here. No matter how the big blind chooses to play, we're mathematically certain to show a larger profit here than from folding. I wouldn't always go by these numbers but when you're this short-stacked and the situation is so obvious... they make a quick short-cut compared to running out the numbers.

Or you could be a better player, assign a range he'll call with, figure out the odds of him having that range, and then figure out your equity against that range combined with your equity when he folds (as I did above) and make your decisions that way... but it's much harder to do in real time and will often lead you to the same answers anyway.

[Krahsami]

Theres no mathamatical certainty there even if he calls with 72. There's statistics.
Ive learned my lesson to tell you the truth i quit posting aster this. I tried explaining it as best I can. What no book or statistic in the world can give you is your read of the table. I also tried highlightling that no matter how many big blinds you have No book or specific hand or position at a table can telll you to shove it in a certain point or place with out that those variables involved. When you looked that stat up did it also say It was bubble position? Was it a Tournament? what were the blinds? What was KQ's stack.?. was Big blind aggressive? What was his stack?

And that no matter how many big blinds you have If you still have a chip and a chair and the best hand you can still win as long as you dont get unlucky. I know alot of unlucky GAMBLERS. A good fold at the right time can also win you $. theres not just one option that is static.

In my original post you all said to shove and gamble. I replied with I shoved later with AJ instead in 21rst about 7000 with the best hand And you know what I was pretty sure I had the best hand then not unsure. Blinds went up and got called and out drawn? well after running the numbers with antes and blinds up and one caller I would have more than I woulda made back there stealing one blind. if my hand held id be good also for a shot at the final table. I got in best and theres nothing else I can do which is how I want to leave and not a possible dog. Now tell me again exactly where I made my mistake and should Quit poker?

I also replied saying that I don't think you opinion is wrong either. What I do know is you guys might have bubbled out there, Stole a blind or doubled up. well never know will we. I know I got ripped off for a double up? And why? because I gambled on statistics.

I woulda shoved that 7 G in with A2 even instead of AJ and hoped KQ called me. you know why because yes I would be gambling but the odds would be on my side at the time to KQ not against me. It's not the hand you think it is. which I also tried telling you. And it can lead to verry big trouble.
Tell how many times you riased or called a raise with that hand only to see AK AQ beat you in the end?
Bet you lost alot more than you wanted to in those type hands also? So what do you do if if a K or Q spikes now?

What do you do if one doesn't spike? News flash 22 is beating you. How many times did 99 or 10 10 beat it?
If your going to have problems betting a hand even if you spike top pair your gambling.

The only time you should gamble is when the blinds Force it. And 10 X blind is more than you think when used right. You are not forced to play a hand you chose it. It's not how much $ you make. It's how much $ you don't lose
But I'll shut up

[frob23]

Theres no mathamatical certainty there even if he calls with 72. There's statistics.

And those statistics make you a mathematical certainty to make chips from shoving here over the long run.

I also tried highlightling that no matter how many big blinds you have No book or specific hand or position at a table can telll you to shove it in a certain point or place with out that those variables involved.

Actually, that's wrong. In this case, David Sklansky wrote a book which had a section on these numbers and how they can point to cases (especially where you're short-stacked) where you should be shoving without any other consideration. This would be one of those cases. When you're mathematically unexpliotable, table read is meaningless. No matter how loose, how tight, or how everyone's been playing... you make the shove and expect to show a profit from it.

When you looked that stat up did it also say It was bubble position?

This was designed to show where you're mathematically better off shoving. In the long run, making moves which will increase your chip equity in tournaments -- especially as you near or enter the money -- will increase your long term expectations from playing tournaments. The bubble doesn't matter. You'd do this at all 'bubble' points in a tournament regardless of the jump in money at that step.

Was it a Tournament?

This was designed with tournament applications in mind. While it would work with a cash game, playing with so few blinds wouldn't be common and making extremely large shoves (like 30xBB) is not the most profitable way to play a hand... it's only sure to be profitable but not the most profitable. In a tournament, where this is a push/fold situation and you're frequently holding very few big blinds, this applies a lot more often. So... yes it was.

what were the blinds?

That is not relevant because this is blind agnostic. With a stack of up to that number of big blinds, you can shove here and show a profit even if the other person knew your hand.

What was KQ's stack.?

Up to 29.3xBB... basically anything below that amount.

was Big blind aggressive?

It doesn't matter. If he's aggressive, passive, or psychic... we still show a long term profit from shoving here.

What was his stack?

In every single case, it is assumed that the big blind has us covered and that we go broke when we lose... and it's still a profitable place to shove.

In my original post you all said to shove and gamble. I replied with I shoved later with AJ instead in 21rst about 7000 with the best hand And you know what I was pretty sure I had the best hand then not unsure.

What you're not seeing is that, the vast majority of the time, KQo will be the best hand in a SBvBB confrontation. Sure, he might have had AQ... but someone might have had AK or AQ when you pushed with the AJ. That happens. More often than not, in both cases, you'll be getting the money in as a favorite.

Blinds went up and got called and out drawn? well after running the numbers with antes and blinds up and one caller I would have more than I woulda made back there stealing one blind. if my hand held id be good also for a shot at the final table. I got in best and theres nothing else I can do which is how I want to leave and not a possible dog. Now tell me again exactly where I made my mistake and should Quit poker?

If you had picked up that one blind there... and then shoved a larger stack, you'd have increased your return on that other had by even more because you would have had more chips to build a larger pot. Your mistake was folding the KQo hand... I believe we pointed this out. The value of that "one big blind" steal (that you dismiss so lightly) is about a 20% increase in your chip equity.

I woulda shoved that 7 G in with A2 even instead of AJ and hoped KQ called me. you know why because yes I would be gambling but the odds would be on my side at the time to KQ not against me.

Since you're ignoring fold equity again, I can point out that KQo against A2o has 42.21% equity... meaning you're making about $9,783 by shoving with A2o if you know he's got KQo and will call with it. That's not much more than shoving KQo with the equity you have from folding and the fact that there's no right play for him.

It's not the hand you think it is. which I also tried telling you. And it can lead to verry big trouble.
Tell how many times you riased or called a raise with that hand only to see AK AQ beat you in the end?
Bet you lost alot more than you wanted to in those type hands also?

It's exactly the hand I think it is. KQo is KQo... it doesn't mysteriously change to 2-3 suited when I play it. I don't keep track of such numbers. I do know I went with a stretch of 12 tournaments where I shoved from the button with a shortish stack and hands of TT+ and AQ+ and ran into Aces in the Big Blind 10 of those 12 times. The odds of running into Aces, like that, even a couple times in 12 are tiny... but to happen 10 of the 12... insane. But so what? That was unfortunate... it doesn't mean I played poorly. It's not like I am going to start folding QQ from the button when I have less than 12xBB.

So what do you do if if a K or Q spikes now?

I am all-in. I am done playing the hand. The cards will be the cards.

What do you do if one doesn't spike? News flash 22 is beating you. How many times did 99 or 10 10 beat it?
If your going to have problems betting a hand even if you spike top pair your gambling.

I am all-in. There is no betting, there are no decisions. I made my decision... one which was going to show a profit in the long run 100% of the time. I am not responsible for the cards nor am I concerned about them.


Edit: It should be noted that these numbers were made for play at all stages of the tournament all the way up to heads up. And the reason that matters is that our potential loss is higher heads up than it is on the bubble. If the bubble is twice our buy-in, and we lose, we are losing 2xbuy-ins. When it gets heads up, the difference in 1st and 2nd might be 50xbuy-ins or higher... and losing would be 25 times more costly than losing on the bubble... but it's still a right place to shove with the stacks. If anything, there is more reason to shove on the bubble and risk losing 2 buy-ins than there is to shove when we're heads up at the final table and risking 50+ buy-ins on this sort of move.

[liladypokerpro]

Wow....apparently I missed a lot in the last 12 hours LOL Only thing I was going to add is (1) stop showing your hands this late in a tournament and (2) stop using emoticons...only reason being sure you want to solidify your image, that's fine, but don't show your folded hands. Primarily because they see what they can force you to fold and if they know you're such a tighty to fold KQ in a good spot, then they're gonna start pushing you around with any two cards and you're going to assume to fold because you're going to assume you're beat.

That's all...

[Krahsami]

Im happy with my play.

[Krahsami]

I quit OK honest. I'm glad I played it the way I did, I didnt bubble out and I got in best with what I had left. You guys make all the moves you want on the bubble. Go nuts. Ive learned my lesson.

I'm glad it was my decision and im happy with the way I played that night. Quote all the stats and books you want ok. But I played that hand not some book. I got in best and missed end strory to me. Books can tell you everything they want. I made my decision from personal experience. Not what I read. im sick of going out around the bubble because I push a hand to early and get unlucky. It doesnt mean KQ it's been AA 10 10 99 AK AQ AJ all these type hands have cost me dearly in the end stages of a tournament. I also truely know how easily KQ can be beat by ALMOST ANY 2 card just as easily as AK, All it takes is some stupid nut job calling you with a 7 and a 2 and him hitting his 2, let alone callin with 22. It has potential to be an Extremely bad Dog hand So I will play it my way. I seem to go deep a fair bit so I like it. I pulled an old list from poker stars when I played more tourneys back then.

Im not saying its super great stats or im the best. I can go deep I know that, all that matters to me.

63863578 Stud Hi/Lo Limit 2007/10/19 1:32 ET - freeroll - 3232 \ 178
63863597 Omaha Hi/Lo Limit 2007/10/20 3:32 ET - freeroll - 3069 \ 424
64642944 Omaha Hi/Lo Limit 2007/10/21 19:32 ET - freeroll - 7528 \ 750
64642947 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/10/21 22:32 ET - freeroll - 12000 \ 535
64642980 Omaha Hi/Lo Limit 2007/10/23 19:32 ET - freeroll - 7754 \ 208
64644823 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/10/24 16:00 ET - $ 0.10 - 4997 \ 198
64645113 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/10/26 16:00 ET - $ 0.10 - 5088 \ 75
64645158 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/10/26 22:00 ET - $ 0.25 - 3813 \ 324
64645287 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/10/27 20:15 ET - $ 2.00 - 1509 \ 23
64645304 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/10/27 22:00 ET - $ 0.25 - 3810 \ 165
64645411 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/10/28 19:00 ET- $ 1.00 - 2496 \ 7
64645418 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/10/28 20:00 ET- $ 0.50 - 3740 \ 493
65233794 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/10/29 20:00 ET - $ 0.50 - 3329 \ 223
65927643 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/08 19:00 ET - $ 1.00 - 1963 \ 191
65927669 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/08 22:00 ET - $ 0.25 - 3431 \ 494
65927712 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/09 5:00 ET - $ 2.00 - 748 \ 103
65465845 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/09 19:40 ET - 10FPP - 4679 \ 44
65927979 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/11 0:00 ET - $ 2.00 - 1515 \ 50
65927998 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/11 4:00 ET - $ 0.10 - 1911 \ 245
66645575 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/12 0:32 ET - freeroll - 12000 \ 884
65465856 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/13 12:40 ET - 10FPP - 4744 \ 327
66630852 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/14 10:00 ET - $ 0.10 - 3201 \ 336
66645620 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/14 13:32 ET- freeroll - 12000 \ 1737
66630932 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/14 22:00 ET - $ 0.25 - 3642 \ 537
65465864 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/15 22:40 ET- 10FPP - 3981 \ 362
66631222 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/16 22:00 ET - $ 0.25 - 3891 \ 219
66631265 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/17 5:00 ET- $ 2.00 - 953 \ 69
66631368 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/17 22:00 ET- $ 0.25 - 4013 \ 466
66645685 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/18 4:32 ET - freeroll - 7318 \ 30
67359281 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/19 1:32 ET - freeroll - 8660 \ 600
67359295 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/19 21:42 ET- freeroll - 12000 \ 548
67347452 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/19 22:00 ET- $ 0.25 - 3651 \ 185
67347491 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/20 4:00 ET- $ 0.10 - 1731 \ 106
67347499 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/20 6:00 ET- $ 1.00 - 809 \ 121
65465881 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/21 19:40 ET - 10FPP - 4740 \ 609
67347776 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/22 2:00 ET- $ 2.00 - 992 \ 44
67347979 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/23 14:15 ET - $ 2.00 - 1488 \ 20
67348142 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/24 16:00 ET- $ 0.10 - 5576 \ 343
67348187 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/24 22:00 ET- $ 0.25 - 3946 \ 315
68176735 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/26 1:32 ET - freeroll - 9097 \ 22
68052621 Hold'em NoLimit 2007/11/26 7:00 ET $ - 1.00 - 828 \ 47
79248571 Omaha NoLimit 2008/03/04 15:32 ET - freeroll - 9392 \ 1212
79025268 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/03/04 19:40 ET - 10FPP - 5997 \ 108
79248607 Omaha Hi/Lo NoLimit 2008/03/06 17:32 ET- freeroll - 9441 \ 705
79025280 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/03/08 19:40 ET - 10FPP - 5670 \ 236
79025281 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/03/08 22:40 ET - 10FPP - 4677 \ 188
79025289 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/03/11 19:40 ET - 10FPP - 5784 \ 691
80620398 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/03/14 22:00 ET - $ 0.25 - 4070 \ 176
79025304 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/03/16 19:40 ET - 10FPP - 6271 \ 109
79025305 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/03/16 22:40 ET - 10FPP - 4856 \ 315
81835344 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/03/29 22:32 ET- freeroll - 12000 \ 153
81874930 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/03/30 20:00 ET- $ 0.50 - 4009 \ 322
82982712 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/04/01 20:00 ET- $ 0.50 - 3197 \ 78
83434520 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/04/05 20:00 ET - $ 0.50 - 3397 \ 452
83972365 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/04/09 10:00 ET - $ 0.10 - 3372 \ 128
83972410 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/04/09 17:00 ET - $ 2.50 - 2654 \ 227
84080597 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/04/10 22:00 ET - $ 0.25 - 3562 \ 15
84448878 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/04/13 22:00 ET - $ 0.25 - 3479 \ 455
84838276 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/04/16 4:00 ET- $ 0.10 - 1581 \ 33
84449466 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/04/18 4:32 ET - freeroll - 7723 \ 558
82987072 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/04/18 22:40 ET - 10FPP - 4324 \ 575
85345737 Omaha Hi/Lo PotLimit 2008/04/21 12:30 ET - $ 2.00 - 421 \ 36
85344598 Omaha Hi/Lo NoLimit 2008/04/23 1:32 ET - freeroll - 4966 \ 38
85344603 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/04/23 8:32 ET - freeroll - 12000 \ 1412
85344629 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/04/24 20:32 ET - freeroll - 12000 \ 929
85344648 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/04/25 20:32 ET - freeroll - 12000 \ 33
85344666 Omaha NoLimit 2008/04/26 19:32 ET - freeroll - 8065 \ 417
82987105 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/04/29 22:40 ET - 10FPP - 4482 \ 632
86190487 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/01 0:32 ET - freeroll - 12000 \ 1055
86640374 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/01 16:00 ET - $ 0.10 - 4343 \ 63
86190515 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/02 14:47 ET - freeroll - 12000 \ 1146
86799662 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/02 17:00 ET - $ 2.50 - 2803 \ 116
86799705 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/02 22:00 ET - $ 0.25 - 3137 \ 167
86396977 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/04 19:40 ET - 10FPP - 5292 \ 710
86967643 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/04 20:00 ET - $ 0.50 - 2616 \ 195
87036545 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/05 0:32 ET - freeroll - 12000 \ 1093
87036546 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/05 1:32 ET - freeroll - 10081 \ 1080
86396979 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/05 12:40 ET - 10FPP - 5248 / 14
86396985 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/07 12:40 ET - 10FPP - 4588 / 508
87453514 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/07 16:00 ET $ - 0.10 - 3153 / 293
87036599 Omaha Hi/Lo NoLimit 2008/05/07 21:42 ET - freeroll - 8406 / 210
86396987 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/07 22:40 ET - 10FPP - 3775 / 88
87036602 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/08 0:32 ET - freeroll - 12000 / 1799
87560201 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/08 20:00 ET - $ 0.50 - 1891 / 1
87036634 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/09 20:32 ET - freeroll - 12000 / 27
87036639 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/10 1:32 ET - freeroll - 11260 / 1355
86396997 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/11 12:40 ET- 10FPP - 4780 / 499
87750123 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/12 0:32 ET- freeroll - 12000 / 574
87750164 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/14 4:32 ET - freeroll - 7732 / 775
88190603 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/14 16:00 ET- $ 0.10 - 3089 / 185
88190810 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/15 22:00 ET- $ 0.25 - 2226 / 122
87750212 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/16 20:32 ET- freeroll - 12000 / 1481
87750230 Omaha NoLimit 2008/05/17 19:32 ET- freeroll - 8267 / 653
88685727 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/19 1:32 ET - freeroll - 10384 / 689
88685745 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/20 0:32 ET - freeroll - 12000 / 1164
88689050 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/20 16:00 ET- $ 0.10 - 3220 / 274
88689234 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/21 20:00 ET- $ 0.50 - 1970 / 139
88685800 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/23 0:32 ET - freeroll - 12000 / 1673
88685838 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/25 0:32 ET - freeroll - 12000 / 923
89642064 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/25 20:32 ET- freeroll - 12000 / 653
89642068 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/26 0:32 ET - freeroll - 12000 / 1235
89799236 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/28 22:00 ET- $ 0.25 - 2412 / 207
86397052 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/29 19:40 ET - 10FPP - 4024 / 86
89642172 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/31 14:47 ET - freeroll - 12000 / 1316
86397145 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/05/31 22:40 ET - 10FPP - 3601 / 494
89642184 Omaha Hi/Lo NoLimit 2008/06/01 5:32 ET - freeroll - 4315 / 375
90363122 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/06/03 4:32 ET - freeroll - 7657 / 684
90496448 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/06/03 22:40 ET - 10FPP - 3541 / 219
90496450 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/06/04 19:40 ET - 10FPP - 3929 / 25
90363153 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/06/04 20:32 ET - freeroll - 12000 / 1515
90361478 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/06/07 10:00 ET - freeroll - 3508 / 171
90846570 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/06/07 20:00 ET- $ 0.50 - 1917 / 266
90846598 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/06/07 22:00 ET- $ 0.25 - 2626 / 227
90496462 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/06/08 19:40 ET - 10FPP - 4549 / 345
91437104 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/06/09 22:40 ET - 10FPP - 3967 / 114
91207174 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/06/11 0:32 ET - freeroll - 12000 / 56
91207190 Omaha Hi/Lo NoLimit 2008/06/11 21:42 ET- freeroll - 7946 / 272
91693487 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/06/12 20:00 ET- $ 0.50 - 1636 / 20
91946101 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/06/15 22:32 ET - freeroll - 12000 / 645
91437131 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/06/18 22:40 ET - 10FPP- 3397 / 417
91946195 Omaha NoLimit 2008/06/20 23:32 ET - freeroll - 7024 / 1001
94081314 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/07/05 22:40 ET - 10FPP - 3777 / 7
94081316 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/07/06 19:40 ET - 10FPP - 5241 / 18
94342069 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/07/06 22:00 ET- $ 0.25 - 3056 / 269
94081317 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/07/06 22:40 ET - 10FPP - 4353 / 64
94674058 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/07/07 19:40 ET - 10FPP - 6232 / 546
95460734 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/07/14 22:32 ET - freeroll - 12000 / 1159
96572848 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/07/21 22:32 ET - freeroll - 12000 / 1330
102281364 Hold'em NoLimit 2008/08/18 20:00 ET - $ 0.50 - 2356 / 199

I usually find myself around top 10 to 20 %. Sometimes I make the bubble some times I dont. When I finish top 10 or 20 % I know I beat 80% of the other ppl and can be happy for playing well, Yes I want to win of course . I'll stick with what I know honest. I can also say that alot of these could have been better But I pushed hands I should have pushed statistcally and lost deep trying to increase my stack. So what did I learn, Not to gamble when you really don't have to.You want to you don't have to. If I didn't learn that then all those other times never taught me a thing. Well I learned from my mistakes. I also learned KQ is not the hand your trying to make it out to be. I have come back from way worse situations than 10 XB to make a final table because I got in best when I KNEW I had the best hand and the actually held up even, because I saved that $ no matter how little it was.

[liladypokerpro]

Okay that's cool, I mean everyone has a system that works for them, so no harm in that...do whatever works best for you. Nobody here is better than the next person, they all just go by what seems to work best for them...some use math, others use instinct, and others use a combination of the two. Whatever floats your boat!

And just to clear it up I am also known to be a bit nitty when it comes to the bubble because I know how crazy people can and will play at that point in the tourney so I'm not saying what you did was wrong or right just pointing out a few problems which might cost you, mainly the issue of showing your folded hands because no matter what position in the tourney you are or what position you are sitting in, that is just giving away waaaay too much free and vital information any way you look at it, and people will use it against you.

I just hope you are not taking to heart whatever has been said here by any of the posters (myself included) because I mean the whole point in posting a question is to receive answers, and although they may not always be what you want to hear, they're going to vary and not always agree. That's the great thing about comparing notes. But if you were comfortable with what you did and how you played then I cannot see a purpose for posting a question asking for opinions on your play, and then seem to get your feathers ruffled when many varying opinions seemed to counter your feelings.