Challenge 11.01: $25NL, 6-max Quads

[frob23]

This one will be a little fun. You've been running pretty poorly at this able. You've run KK into AA but managed to get away from it before the river so no one else knows. Your biggest hit to your stack came recently when you flopped top two pair and managed to get it all-in against a middle sized stack who had bottom pair. He turned trips and won. But your image is pretty good at this table. Your pre-flop raises are respected most of the time and you rarely call a big raise. So your image is tight. But when you are in a hand, you're betting it most of the time. A few times you have checked down modest holdings to keep the pot small.

The player UTG in this hand has a very tight image and you know he's not really creative but he's solid and plays strong cards, especially from early position.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com



BB ($27.50)
UTG ($13.20)
Hero (MP) ($11.75)
Button ($5.30)
SB ($26.75)

Preflop: Hero is MP with ,
UTG raises to $1,

1) You've got Jacks and a tight player UTG opens in front of you for 4xBB, what do you do?
a) fold
b) call $1.00
c) raise to $3.00
d) shove all-in


Hero calls $1, 3 folds

Flop: ($2.35) , , (2 players)
UTG bets $1.50,

2) This is a dream flop for you. After you're done pinching yourself, what do you put the UTG player on?

3) Based on the above range, what do you do?
a) fold
b) call $1.50
c) raise to $3.00
d) raise to $4.50
e) shove all-in

Hero calls $1.50

Turn: ($5.35) (2 players)
UTG checks,

4) Is this card good or bad for your potential profit? Why?


5) What do you do?
a) check behind
b) bet $2.00
c) bet $5.00
d) shove all-in

Hero checks

River: ($5.35) (2 players)
UTG bets $3.25,

6) Obviously this is better than we might expect. What do you do?
a) fold
b) call $3.25 (we're not getting any more from him anyway)
c) raise to $6.50
d) raise to $8.00
e) raise all-in ($9.25)

Hero raises to $8, UTG calls $4.75

Total pot: $21.35 | Rake: $1.05

7) He calls, what range of hands do you expect him to turn over here?


8) Based on the range of hands he's calling with, do you think you may have been able to get more?




As always, this is meant to be fun guys. Read it and enjoy. There's not many "wrong" answers here if you can support your reasoning. Well, folding on the flop is wrong. But you knew that.

[gamer4life27]

1. You can justify for all except option D, All-In. You do not want to risk your whole stack to a tight pre flop player with strong holdings. He rarely raises, so you know he has something. So you can either fold (maybe he has QQ, KK, AA, or if you don't want to gamble with him and you think this person has AQ/AK (most likely suited, but could always be un suited). You can call the pre flop raise to see a flop, or raise to get everyone out and make it you and him in HU action. This option is most risky, as he might re-raise you a lot, then you have a big decision to make. So I would justify calling here, folding to anyone behind you re-raising or one re-raise and original raiser to re-re-raise.

2. The same set of hands I did pre flop, 10 10 - AA, AJ-AK off-suit, and A9-AK suited.

3. Obviously you are NOT folding here. So it's all about how to get the most money out of this person as possible. So you can either call, making them think you think they are on a bluff, to take the pot away later with a marginal hand. Raise, making them think you are bluffing to get them off your bluff, or push all-in to make them seem like you are on a draw, or you don't want them to catch there draw. I say just smooth call here and bet on the flop, or raise here, see if he calls and checks the turn so you can check also. And if you call, he may check on the turn so you can bet, and it may entice him to make a move at this pot.

4. This card is both bad for my profit potential, and good as I know it did not him, and if I bet, he knows I did not hit it, so me might put me on a bluff even more.

5. A and C are your only two options. You can not push all in here, as they will not call you, and you can not bet $2 into a pot of nearly $5.40 and expect it to be seen as a bluff. So you want to either bet pot, or check to let him know that you did not hit that card and are waiting for the river, most likely putting you on the flush draw.

6. You can NOT fold here, you have the absolute nuts. And you can not either go all in, or call it. You MUST get more money from them now, as it is your last chance to do it. So your only options is to raise min to $6.50, or raise to $8. I feel either of these two options are fine, as it entices them to call for pot odds, and they might think they have the best hand.

7. I expect him to turn over either a full house (44, 77, or 99), over pair (QQ, KK, or AA), or AK (either suited or not). They have to be calling with some sort of hand to make them think they are ahead, so there is nothing less than this.

8. I might have, but you do not want to risk it, as you know he doesn't have you beat, and if you move all in, he might have been on a huge bluff and will insta fold once you go all in. So the small-ish raise is the safest bet to try and get more money out of him, give or take his hand range and reading abilities.

[irishpkr]

Before I dive in, why are we playing less than 50BB deep here?

1. I don't mind calling here depending on just how tight UTG actually is. Against almost everyone I am 3balling pre, but if he's a nit I don't mind flatting at all.

2. A nit he might be, but his range from preflop is probably 88+, AQo+, AJs+, something along those lines

3. I think you can make a good case for making a small raise or flat calling here. He probably doesnt want to invest much more in the pot when an overcard calls, scaring him from his 88-TT type hands. On one hand, all his Ax hands missed the flop, so he wont be able to call a raise with those. On the other hand, all his over pairs are stacking off here on the flop, and it would be bad to let another club fall to worry him. I think its a flat call for me, we dont mind giving cheap cards to let villain catch up a bit, maybe catch his A/K/Q whatever.

4. Out of 10, I would rate this as a 3. The only hand that it improved was 99, of which there would be only 3combos. All the Ax hands are still unpaired, which kinda sucks.

5. B- Bet $2. With the current stack sizes, there's no way we can get all the money in by the river WITHOUT betting here, so I'm betting enough to set up a river shove, while at the same time encouraging a call from villain.

6. Shove, too obvious to go into any detail :P

7. He might have the odd fullhouse here, pocket 99 or perhaps 77. More likely in my mind is that he has AK trying to bluff, or a tricky QQ+ hand that was trying to get fancy.

8. Why raise to $8 and leave just over a dollar behind? Shove looks more bluffy anyway, and will get called just as often as the $8 bet, so shove, LDO.

EDIT:

In response to what Gamer said above: I think you're reading too much into how villain is thinking and playing here. You talk about 'he knows that I know that he knows' kinda stuff, which is pointless, most people are just looking at their two cards, there is nowhere near as much metagame involved as you make it sound

"I might have [shoved], but you do not want to risk it, as you know he doesn't have you beat, and if you move all in, he might have been on a huge bluff and will insta fold once you go all in."

Just read this over to yourself, and realise how batshit insane this is lol. What do you risk by shoving? If he was bluffing he's putting nothing more in anyway, we just to hope he has a legit hand, and against those hands, shoving >>> whatever

[frob23]

Before I dive in, why are we playing less than 50BB deep here?

Because we just lost $12 in a pot 3 hands before this.

I mentioned the hand in the introduction block. But we've basically just been knocked this short. We didn't sit this short.

[gamer4life27]

EDIT:

In response to what Gamer said above: I think you're reading too much into how villain is thinking and playing here. You talk about 'he knows that I know that he knows' kinda stuff, which is pointless, most people are just looking at their two cards, there is nowhere near as much metagame involved as you make it sound

"I might have [shoved], but you do not want to risk it, as you know he doesn't have you beat, and if you move all in, he might have been on a huge bluff and will insta fold once you go all in."

Just read this over to yourself, and realise how batshit insane this is lol. What do you risk by shoving? If he was bluffing he's putting nothing more in anyway, we just to hope he has a legit hand, and against those hands, shoving >>> whatever

Well, I'm sorry if I am thinking like a poker player. EVERYONE has to think about what the other person has. If you are only thinking about what your two hole cards are, then please read some books, go to a card club, or do something to make you realize that most, if not, all other poker players go off of what you think your opponent has, and you think he thinks you have. It's not rocket science, particularly online. Betting patterns tells a story to what your hand might be. If he is barley starting to read opponents, and you follow those betting patterns on that board, he will try to bluff at it, giving you more profit.

I always read my posts twice before I post them, so I know what I said. How is that quote on quote 'batshit'? The only thing you can risk here by shoving all in is profit! You know he doesn't have you beat, so how do you make an inferior hand call here? That is the basic question, because if you shove, you know this person has to have either two overs, is bluffing, (and these are the rare hands good readers might do) an over pair, two pair on board, (and the one in a billion chance) a full house. So let me restate it, how do you make an inferior hand call you? By making them think you are bluffing! Simple as that, you HAVE to raise here as you have the nuts and are looking for more profit. And with your table image, people might think you are steaming and are trying to by the pot after you might have missed something, or you took a bad beat and you don't know it, but he might think you have him crushed.

So please tell me again how thinking like a normal poker player is totally obscure?

Because we just lost $12 in a pot 3 hands before this.

I mentioned the hand in the introduction block. But we've basically just been knocked this short. We didn't sit this short.

Obviously you are not very observant, and this will cost you highly in the long run. The only reason someone would start short is two reasons. One, you are playing to double up your bankroll (you are sitting down with all your bankroll). And the second is if it's a really loose table, pre-flop raises left and right. Plus, frob would never play at a ring game with no less than 50BB. But then again, I have not played with him as long as I should to know his playing style that well.

[irishpkr]

I have no problem at all with thinking beyond 'what my own cards are', thank you, but to start saying we should make a play because we are assuming he knows that we know that he knows something is kinda pointless against the average online micro stakes player - this is evidenced by most of em calling down with tpnk/2nd pair no kicker even when you fire 3barrels, they hit their ace, they have a pair, lets go! Not saying all players are like that, but to think at level 3/4 against a level 0/1 thinking opponent isn't worth it
Ofcourse I am aware of thinking about what my villain has, I thought it would be obvious from what I have posted here on these forums that I'm actually clued in :P

Lets go over this shove: if he has a bluff, he doesnt call if we raise, so its irrelevent what we do in that instance. If he has a hand worth calling, what hands would call the $8 raise, but not the $9.25 raise?! His range won't change due to that $1.25, everytime he calls we make an extra $1.25 - by not shoving we are losing profit. Why would you leave $1.25, especially when shoving looks more bluffy? Never at any point did I suggest flatcalling, but to raise to $8 rather than $9.25 is bad.


"Obviously you are not very observant, and this will cost you highly in the long run. The only reason someone would start short is two reasons. One, you are playing to double up your bankroll"

Obviously I am observant enough to realise that we lost some money in a pot 'recently', implying it wasnt the previous hand. Does it take 5min to rebuy?
And that's not even a reason...

[gamer4life27]

At any stakes I play, I use my poker mind in this way. Even if he is a total donk, he will always try to posture, or think what you have in order to bluff. He would not continue to bluff once he knows he is beat, so you have to make him think he is about to bluff you off a real hand.

And with micro stakes players, the difference between calling the $8 raise and the $9.25 all in is that one is an all in. Once micro stakes players see someone is all in, they re-think there evaluations and only play premiums/semi-decent holdings. It's the mind that they have, that if someone is all-in, they HAVE to have something good, or else they won't be shoving. So no way would they call an all-in with not that stong holdings. A raise is simply the best option because it seems less threatening. And they will only call bets that might put them ahead.

[phaul]

At any stakes I play, I use my poker mind in this way. Even if he is a total donk, he will always try to posture, or think what you have in order to bluff. He would not continue to bluff once he knows he is beat, so you have to make him think he is about to bluff you off a real hand.

And with micro stakes players, the difference between calling the $8 raise and the $9.25 all in is that one is an all in. Once micro stakes players see someone is all in, they re-think there evaluations and only play premiums/semi-decent holdings. It's the mind that they have, that if someone is all-in, they HAVE to have something good, or else they won't be shoving. So no way would they call an all-in with not that stong holdings. A raise is simply the best option because it seems less threatening. And they will only call bets that might put them ahead.

Gamer, the read given was that he was a simple ABC player and not creative. Most players like this are not retards, they just don't know a lot about the game. Everyone has friends like this, ask one of them, with a hand like A9 would they call $8 but fold to a shove? Pretty much anything that calls a raise calls a shove. Ur also losing value from FH/weirdly played overpair.

"with your table image, people might think you are steaming and are trying to by the pot after you might have missed something"

Surely shoving makes you seem more like you're steaming than a normal-sized bet?

"I might have, but you do not want to risk it, as you know he doesn't have you beat, and if you move all in, he might have been on a huge bluff and will insta fold once you go all in."

Wtf? If he's bluffing he folds regardless of your raise size.

My answers:
1) With all the preamble given, def call.
2) Depends how tight. Prob something like the range irish gave, maybe down to A9, 77
3) Call, it looks weaker and won't be difficult to ship stacks in if he has a hand.
4) Pretty bad, the lower the card, the worse. It also doesn't complete the flush. It only hits A9 or 99. Obv an ace would be amazing.
5) I like a check. If he has air, it allows him to bluff the river or hit an overcard. Pretty sure the turn check means he doesn't have an overpair, although it is possible; he can be hoping your call means you're strong so he can c/r the turn, altho the preamble said he's not creative, so this is unlikely. People do think weirdly though, he can have TT even though it's effectively the same hand as QQ. The only thing I can see a check losing value against is A9, or maybe 77, 88 or TT if an over card hits the river. Thing is, it's a ridic dry board bar the fd, so I can't see much paying the turn off that wouldn't ship the river.
6) Ship.
7) Most likely A9. Hopefully, for his sake, he would ship with a FH so that's unlikely. He may have TT-AA here (see 5).
8) Yes, almost anything/anyone that calls $8 calls a shove.

[gamer4life27]

Guess you will play your way, and I will continue to play my way, the way I know makes me profit. Nothing much else I can say than that as I can see you will not change your mind.

But trust me, if you don't know players at low stakes, they will call a raise, but will only call all-in with some pretty good holdings.

[CeeMonee]

Guess you will play your way, and I will continue to play my way, the way I know makes me profit. Nothing much else I can say than that as I can see you will not change your mind.

But trust me, if you don't know players at low stakes, they will call a raise, but will only call all-in with some pretty good holdings.

I think you're being a little oppresive with your comments in this thread. I never post here, but I know that there is a lot of bad play at micro limits. 6 is a no brainer shove. It doesn't even have to be percieved as a bluff here for profit. Our EV is going to be much higher with a shove. The majority of players have trouble folding overpairs and premium hands (which this player is likely to have). Also, boats are very hard for many players to fold. I'm always shoving here for +EV. The % of the time this UTG player calls a shove times the additional $ in the pot will more then compensate here for most players here. Without thinking of percieved bluffs and what not, consider your profit here in 100 identical situations at the river with each action. Also, assume we don't know what the villain did at the river.

EDIT: In response to : "they will call a raise, but will only call all-in with some pretty good holdings."
This is way too general. Especially for how deep player is, the size of the pot, and the board texture of this hand.

[Gil_the_Mover]

pre deal... buy in full

also concerning our image. I am not so worried about how the other players view me. I reallly dont know how many people are paying attention at 25nl. the much more important thing is how we view the other players.