All in with 3, 5 Off Suit?

[Nikster]

I was in a 9 player turbo tourney down to last two players. I had 12000 in chips and my opponent down to only 1200 chips and blinds were 300/600 and he was bb. Do I raise all in with 3 5 Off Suit here? He obviously is pot commited and will have me beat, but do I want to give him another $300 to possibly double up with later?? This happens so often and it makes a big difference in payout so I thought i'd ask others opinion.

[liladypokerpro]

Honestly I'd do it, only because what's the point of giving him your blind without a fight? I mean HU it's pretty much anything goes at that point anyway...Who knows what he was holding...would have been hilarious if he'd had 2 3 off LOL Honestly tho, by the point of HU, ya gotta try if he's down to that little bit and you've got him so far covered. You can't wait for premium hands in HU...so many people do that and end up getting them busted by someone holding your 3 5 off suit. Hang tough...

[DoomModeObv]

I definitely think its profitable to shove there...and I will definitely get it all in in that situation...

[gamer4life27]

DoomModeObv - It is not a profitable play.

In HU play, you want to get your opponent down to the bare blinds so all you have to do is go all in a few times with ATC and he is out. Lets say you have 3 2 OS three times in a row and he is going to be all in three times in a row with the blinds. And lets say he is holding A K OS each of these three times. Your ~35% underdog, meaning you will win only 35/100, or 7/20, or .35/1. So out of the three times you have him all in, you will win roughly 1.05 times (according to statistics).

If you want to give him your SB to try and pick up another hand the next hand (which you know he is going to shove with ATC in the SB if you folded there) then by all means go for it. HU is however you want to play. In fact, poker in general is however you want to play or however you see that makes you to the most profit.

But me personally, if he/she is down to a little less than 2.5BB, I am shoving with ATC to gamble. I know I will not win all of the times I shove to gamble, but I do know I have a chance of KO'ing him or her right then and there. And if you have the chips to do it, why not?

[phaul]

He calls ATC so you need to have at least 37.5% equity against a random hand, which you don't have, so fold.

HU is linear so you don't need to consider anything else.

[Brooklynbum]

I might not shove with it but I might just call with it and see what happens.

That extra 300 chips you're giving on a call the villain is peanuts compared to the stack you have.

But in most cases I'd probably just call given the chip stacks and see if the villain decides to shove. If that's the case I'd probably fold but if they check then you get to see flop.

5/3 is a just about a 2-1 dog against any random hand. So shoving isn't so bad as you would think.

It's really up to you. I would say that shoving/calling with that hand is within the range of what you need to call with in order to win the tourney.

If you decide to fold that's good also.

You want to call and hope the villain checks? that's a viable option also.

Either 3 of these scenarios is ok in my book.

It's really up to you to see if you want to try and end the tournament right there.

If you're the type of player who feels like they need at least a decent hand before shoving or callling then fold.

If you're the type of player who isn't afraid to risk a little to try and close out the tourney then go for it.

If you want to see a flop for cheap and hope to outplay the villain on the flop then go ahead and call.

There really is no correct answer to this situation.

[joetreff300]

Why is it all about shoving?

Call the half bet, if he raises his last $600 then call.

If he doesn't raise thats when you make your extra profit! No matter the flop just bet out the last $600.

On a flop of AK9 he will be forced to fold hands like 62, 54, 73, 74 etc...hands that crush you if you just shove. So you show much more profit doing this.

[phaul]

Why is it all about shoving?

Call the half bet, if he raises his last $600 then call.

If he doesn't raise thats when you make your extra profit! No matter the flop just bet out the last $600.

On a flop of AK9 he will be forced to fold hands like 62, 54, 73, 74 etc...hands that crush you if you just shove. So you show much more profit doing this.

Thought about this and it may gain you up to T$200 if he shoves the top 30% of his pf range, calls flop with any pair and folds otherwise. However, there's a really thin range of situations where this is better than just shoving.

2.5 BB deep with 95o this move gives you +T$70 which is the same equity as if you shove. You have to have absolute rags and be ultra-shallow (less than 3.5 BB) though to make this move. Most of the time shove/fold is better.

This doesn't take into account that you can't do this on all flops as some are too wet.

It might gain you some small EV in very few situations, but it's so marginal and so rare that it's good that it's not worth the bother. It has to be applied perfectly and is just too thin. Imo.

[phaul]

"I might not shove with it but I might just call with it and see what happens."

This is bad philosophy.

"That extra 300 chips you're giving on a call the villain is peanuts compared to the stack you have."

Again, bad philosophy, DUCY?

"But in most cases I'd probably just call given the chip stacks and see if the villain decides to shove. If that's the case I'd probably fold but if they check then you get to see flop."

Folding is horrendous, you're getting better than 25% on almost all viable ranges.

"I would say that shoving/calling with that hand is within the range of what you need to call with in order to win the tourney."

I don't understand this sentence.

"If you decide to fold that's good also. You want to call and hope the villain checks? that's a viable option also. Either 3 of these scenarios is ok in my book. It's really up to you to see if you want to try and end the tournament right there. If you're the type of player who feels like they need at least a decent hand before shoving or callling then fold. If you're the type of player who isn't afraid to risk a little to try and close out the tourney then go for it. If you want to see a flop for cheap and hope to outplay the villain on the flop then go ahead and call."

Pretty sure this isn't good analysis. In fact, pretty sure this isn't analysis at all. You're just saying "Do what you feel like", which is retarded. Also, it's pretty hard to "outplay" someone with a 1/2 PSB behind.

"There really is no correct answer to this situation."

Maybe, given that the EV of what joetreff suggested depends on villain, but folding is undebateably better than shoving (unless villain is an absolute retard and can fold to your shove).

[Brooklynbum]

Thanks Phaul for making yourself look like the arrogant, know it all poker pro that you are.

I'm sure your theory and way to play this hand is superior than the rest of the other players out there.

[BUILDMO]

you have a little to lose and too much to gain when you are the big stack.
push the s*%t out of the big stack and watch them fold.

If you have cashed (down to 2) push and win. What other way is there?

[phaul]

Thanks Phaul for making yourself look like the arrogant, know it all poker pro that you are.

I'm sure your theory and way to play this hand is superior than the rest of the other players out there.

Lol, I'm not a pro (although I have learnt a lot from people I know, who are). Sorry the post was arrogant, but I couldn't be bothered to spend ages cushioning my points. Your post contained a lot of fundamentally bad advice and philosophy, and I didn't want to spend hours highlighting these in massive detail (eg call-fold, which you stated as a viable option, is the worst possible play, but I couldn't be bothered to run through all the maths). SnGs and small blind play have been studied in massive detail to the point where they have effectively been "solved" mathematically. This really is just basic standard theory.

[gerhardt]

All in every hand if you're that well stacked...it gives you at least 3 chances 2 finish the game,,waiting 4 AA KK or the likes, would mean playing 2 tight and leaving you're blinds behind...the game starts on the flop 4 both of you....

[Boeggs]

Chances are his hand is no good either. With that kind of lead I'm shovin every hand.

[Naminuk]

I would fold, and give him a sb as next round he will push also and maybe than i will have bit better acards. there is no point to double him up.