PokerStars is ticking me off

[frob23]

My step-brother and I transfer funds back and forth frequently. Well, mostly I transfer him money and he pays me back later. So I have a lot of money going in and out of my account from time to time. And PokerStars has never given me a problem about it.

I play when I have time. And I play micro-stakes for the most part. My step-brother plays insane limits (well above his bankroll as well as mine which is why he borrows from me frequently). But I don't play a lot. I built up the money I have in PS over time and am pretty proud to have as much as I do there.

So I want to cash out most of it ($300) because I need the money for other things and don't really need that much extra hanging around on the site with the limits I play.

As it happens, a week ago, my step-brother borrowed the $300 from me and he sent it back recently. So when I go to cash it out, it gets rejected.

After a routine review of your latest cashout in the amount of $300, it has
come to our attention that all of the funds that you cashed out came
directly from a transfer that you received from 'STEPBROTHER'. We noticed that
you did not play with the funds received from this player.

Our transfer privilege is only available to allow players to fund their
accounts in order to play when they can not deposit funds with their own
deposit options. We are restricted by our licensing agreements in the Isle
of Man that prevent us from being able offer a real money transfer service
for the purpose of cashing out. This is why we can not allow cashout from
transferred funds.

This makes me really angry. How long is it going to take before they consider me to have played with that $300 when I play $2NL-$5NL half a dozen times a month? Are they going to reset it each time I loan my step-brother money and he sends me cash back? If so, I'm never going to get to cash out.

Considering the loan itself came from the accumulated winnings over time... and this is a repayment... this is basically the same $300 I have been playing with for a year and a half. Just because it got moved to an account for a week and then moved back to mine... suddenly it's "new" money.



I've sent an email to the security folks and explained the situation. I doubt that will work. But I also asked them to review the history and verify that the money comes from my account and then comes back later from his. And if, after all that, they still can't do it... I asked just what amount of play it's going to take before I can send my own money home. And I asked if every time he sends me money this is going to happen.

I just want my $300. I'm leaving money on there to play with. It's not like I'm leaving them forever. And part of the reason I want the money is that I am tired of loaning it to my step-brother (even though he's always paid me back) and as long as I have it on there it will remain part of his available bankroll. I won't say no to him, if I have enough money in the account, because he is good for it and I want him to be available if I ever need a quick transfer myself.

[C8H10N4O2]

Keep us updated on what happens. You would think they'd be able to see what has happened and realize you have played with those funds. Should be interesting though.

[frob23]

Here's part of their response.

I have reviewed your account and even when you sent the funds to this
palyer earlier this month, you did not palyed with the funds considerably.

Our new cashout policy requires you to accumulate at least 15% in VPPs on
the amount of the funds you wish to cashout, which stems from transferred
funds.

To make this requirement easier to understand, you can think of needing to
accumulate 15 VPPs for every $100 you received via transfer that are
attempting to cashout. In your case, you have not accumulated
VPPs since receiving the transferred funds (provide date) you to attempted
cashout.

It should be noted that part of my response was:

>I play casually, as I am sure my history on the site indicates. I
typically play 1c/2cNL and 2c/5cNL. And I do not play often. Right now,
with a very busy schedule, it might be 1-3 times a month if I have time.

Of course I haven't played with them very much before sending them! My step-brother routinely borrows money. In the last 60 days, I can see 21 transfers between my step-brother and myself. So if they're only counting from the last time they arrived, I'm still fucked.

They want me to rack up 45 VPP to cash this out. At the limits I play, this is practically impossible. You get 1 VPP when the rake reaches 40c. At the limits I play, this is rare. In fact, last night it happened 1 time in 122 hands. That's about typical too or around 1 VPP per 100 hands. They're asking me to play 4,500 hands of poker or more before cashing this out. Since the start of this year, I have only 2 VPP.

This amount is trivial when it comes to people playing higher limits but it's just not practical for those playing the micro limits. Over the course of playing on PS, I have accumulated 300+ VPP in 18 months of play. That includes periods where I played a lot more than I can right now. So we're talking 3 months to be able to cash out my money.

I have sent them a response back, pointing out the impossibility and cruelty towards micro players. I've also asked what happens next time he sends me money or I send him money.

[GainerRakeback]

Frob,

Basically, it seems, we're at the mercy of these foreign-based pokersites and their unfair rules. Because of the nature of online gambling and lack of real gov't or trade regulation (Isle of Man doesn't count), we players must exercise caution and not deposit too much money at any one of them. That being said, trying to withdraw $300 and being denied because it was recently transfered from another player is very unfair. My only suggestion is to transfer it to a player you trust who plays a lot on Stars and have them make the withdrawal to send to you.

When I withdrew from Doylesroom, you could only withdraw whole dollar amounts like $107.00, not $107.68. So the site improperly gets to keep all the cents, which probably adds up to a lot after a while. Plus they charged $10.00 to get a paper check. And it took 7 weeks.

We're at their mercy...

[frob23]

Well, I am currently going to play a few days of $25NL and just get the stupid VPP. I got 12 today in 1.2 hours... so it can be done in about 4 hours or so. I just need to find tables where people are willing to play for big-ish pots often enough. It can be done but I just don't want to play higher only for the VPP. If I wanted to play those limits anyway, it's not a big deal. But I don't.

I can only imagine that my step-brother will borrow more money soon enough and send it back a couple days later and restart this process.

I normally love Stars for the extreme micro-limits and don't care about the very infrequent VPP for those players. But having the ability to cash out denied mainly because I play so low is a real pain in the rear.

[EliminateU]

I am also mystified by some of the withdrawal options. Every site should be able to send a check to you within 1 business day (in the mail). I had hoped Full Tilt (because of it's size) would be immune to shenanigan's. Ha. They are charging fees to get a check, which is ridiculous.

On your matter, though, I believe the reason is a reputable site trying to retain accredidation from organizations and governments (either isle of Man or Kanawake(sp)) must abide by certain anti-money laundering terms. That is what they are trying to prevent, their site becoming a huge money laundering operation. If that happened that would end online poker as USA, UK, InterPol, etc would completely destroy any site doing this. Obviously you are not but that's why they have the rules.

[123bird]

My step-brother and I transfer funds back and forth frequently. Well, mostly I transfer him money and he pays me back later. So I have a lot of money going in and out of my account from time to time. And PokerStars has never given me a problem about it.

I play when I have time. And I play micro-stakes for the most part. My step-brother plays insane limits (well above his bankroll as well as mine which is why he borrows from me frequently). But I don't play a lot. I built up the money I have in PS over time and am pretty proud to have as much as I do there.

So I want to cash out most of it ($300) because I need the money for other things and don't really need that much extra hanging around on the site with the limits I play.

As it happens, a week ago, my step-brother borrowed the $300 from me and he sent it back recently. So when I go to cash it out, it g



This makes me really angry. How long is it going to take before they consider me to have played with that $300 when I play $2NL-$5NL half a dozen times a month? Are they going to reset it each time I loan my step-brother money and he sends me cash back? If so, I'm never going to get to cash out.

Considering the loan itself came from the accumulated winnings over time... and this is a repayment... this is basically the same $300 I have been playing with for a year and a half. Just because it got moved to an account for a week and then moved back to mine... suddenly it's "new" money.



I've sent an email to the security folks and explained the situation. I doubt that will work. But I also asked them to review the history and verify that the money comes from my account and then comes back later from his. And if, after all that, they still can't do it... I asked just what amount of play it's going to take before I can send my own money home. And I asked if every time he sends me money this is going to happen.

I just want my $300. I'm leaving money on there to play with. It's not like I'm leaving them forever. And part of the reason I want the money is that I am tired of loaning it to my step-brother (even though he's always paid me back) and as long as I have it on there it will remain part of his available bankroll. I won't say no to him, if I have enough money in the account, because he is good for it and I want him to be available if I ever need a quick transfer myself.

Well, I am currently going to play a few days of $25NL and just get the stupid VPP. I got 12 today in 1.2 hours... so it can be done in about 4 hours or so. I just need to find tables where people are willing to play for big-ish pots often enough. It can be done but I just don't want to play higher only for the VPP. If I wanted to play those limits anyway, it's not a big deal. But I don't.

I can only imagine that my step-brother will borrow more money soon enough and send it back a couple days later and restart this process.

I normally love Stars for the extreme micro-limits and don't care about the very infrequent VPP for those players. But having the ability to cash out denied mainly because I play so low is a real pain in the rear.

That a fkn joke,they must be kidding
F**ken JOKERSTARS finds another way to screw people

Do yourself a favor when(IF) you get your money

Tell JOKERSTARS you have been Erased/deleted

[frob23]

Date: Sunday, January 25, 2009, 10:28 PM

Hello XXXXXXX,

Thanks for your email.

We are no longer allowing cashouts of transfers where you have not played
with the funds. This policy is due to the rising costs of processing
cashouts which we cover for our playing customers.

Also we are not a financial institution or a money transferring service.
Every deposit and cashout has fees that we willingly cover for players that
deposit to play, but we can not be covering fees for deposits and cashouts
not intended for play.

Please be aware that our site is to be used for poker play not simply as a
transfer service. Our transfer option is designed to help you fund your
account for poker play.

We welcome you to play with the funds or to transfer them back to the
original account.

I hope this answers your query.

Kind Regards

Chris
PokerStars Security

ARG, the bloody attitude in this one.


The following is my response.

To whom it may concern:

No, I am sorry but the last email does not answer my question. The question is, "If this other player borrows money from me and then sends it back, am I going to have to restart earning VPP in hopes of ever having a cashout? And if there is a VPP penalty, what will it be?"

I can understand that you're not a money transferring service. And I do play poker on your site. In fact, I have been a huge fan of your site before and have recommended it often to friends of mine who want to try playing poker online. One of the things I cite as a reason for them is that your site offers some of the best super-micro limits for people just getting comfortable playing for real money online.

Do I play often? Recently, I have not been able to. I have other obligations which have reduced the amount of time I have to spend playing poker. Do I play high limits and pay lots of rake? Sorry, no. I like playing the very tiny limits and am comfortable there. I am sorry that I am not important enough for you to avoid insulting me in such a blunt manner in your response. [And I hope the person reading this will review that and understand where I am coming from.] I believe that I have played fairly loyally (if infrequently) for well over a year on your site. All of it at the tiny levels I enjoy.

I do not make frequent cash-outs. In fact, I do not know the last time I asked for a check (I believe it was around a year ago). So it is very insulting to me to be accused of making deposits and/or cashouts without playing. To have left my money in my account for a year while I played and then be treated as if the cost of my request is an unfair burden is insulting. I understand there are fees related to financial transactions but I fail to see how my history is a problem.

Actually, you have benefitted from my previous habit of just leaving the money on the site. As the other player would borrow my funds and play with them (losing them all and depositing or winning a bunch and sending me them back). So the funds haven't even been as terrible and unprofitable burden as implied. At this point, since I can't seem to get a straight answer as to what will happen if I loan that player money again, I will refuse the next request. And they will have to wait until they can make a deposit.

Don't worry. I am capable of playing a few hands and earning the VPP. Despite the fact that I consider it unfair to essentially require me to move to higher limits for the purposes of cashing out. I know I will never earn the VPP I need playing $0.01/$0.02NL or $0.02/$0.05NL -- the levels I prefer. So I will move up a little, as you obviously desire, until I get the points. But the next time someone asks me for a good site for micro-limit players, I will have to rethink my recommendation.

I thank you for your time and possible answer to the question(s) at the top of this email. If I don't get a response to it, I will assume that I should just proceed with refusing all funds transfers for the time being.

Yours,

XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXX

At this point, I am tempted to just cash the whole lot out and only play with play money on their servers (just to keep using up their resources). And I'll completely refuse any sort of transfers from my step-brother again. I don't want to have to rebuild it all every time.

[frob23]

Another little irritating thing, that I noticed this morning, is that I might not play there a lot but it's easily the second most popular site on my list by a long shot.

Since June 19th, I have played 79.7 hours of real money (ring games) on there. Sure, that's only 11 hours a month. But I've only played 203.4 hours total since that date. So it's not like I've been ignoring the site. I've also played over 5,700 hands on there and sat down with over $312 during that time. So to be accused of not playing really gets my nerve up. And that is just over half the year. And it's easily my slowest 6 month period of the 18 months I have played on the site.

If you toss in tournaments and sit and goes, that's another 38.1 hours of play (since August) and who knows how much money (I don't track them as explicitly). But it's easily another $40 or so since PokerStars is, by far, my favorite site for small sit and gos and tournaments.

Am I the most profitable player they have on the site? Not by a long shot. But it's not like I cost them that much and never make them anything.

[frob23]

Ok, so I have gotten an abrupt be apparently clear response:

We ask that players accumulate at least 15% of your requested cashout amount
in VPP since your last deposit/transfer received. To make this requirement
easier to understand, you can think of needing to accumulate 15 VPP for
every $100 you wish to cashout.

As you can see, the wording is a little more clear. Regardless of the amount of the last deposit or transfer, I need to accumulate 15VPP per $100 I want to cash out. So if my step-brother sends me $10. I will need to start from zero and earn 45 more VPP to cash out $300.

Technically, he still owes me $30. I just hope he doesn't send it to me. I'll try and play a couple times this week and earn some VPP. Maybe I'll cash out $100-$200 when I have enough VPP for that. Just in case.

So, now I am looking at cutting 2-3 checks instead of one... to make sure that I can get my funds without having to restart this process because of my step-brother. And they complained about the costs of transactions for them... and now their own policy has doubled or tripled the amount of transactions I want to make.

This is so much BS, it's insane.

[I Eat Gamblers]

This is a touchy subject but in a way a can understand from PS point of view.

Lets say you just won 100k, but can only withdraw so much per/wk to avoid paying taxes.

Now the easiet solution to that is to transfer money to someone, who then withdraws the limit thru thier account, which gets you money faster but also avoids having to pay taxes.

I would bet that along the way people did exactly this and cheated the system, thats why they have the transfer rules, you just happen to be one of the honest players getting screwed by it.

Thats my outlook on this issue.......could be right or wrong but it does make sense.

[frob23]

Yeah but watch what is going to happen. I will get my 1c Rakeback commission transfered to this account and have my VPP count reset.

Also, it shouldn't be too hard to compute the NET of all transfers between players and work out that amount as the amount to require VPP on. And not reset the entire thing everytime a small deposit is made.

Now, I have nothing to hide here. And I have no problem with them picking over all my tranfers and cash-outs with a fine toothed comb. Of course, they're not going to bother and they will just pick the simplest solution. The one which most hurts the micro limit players.

Honestly, the VPP method of determining this is outrageous for people who play under $10NL. It's not hard to go 200+ hands without earning a single VPP. I'd much rather it be something like number of real money hands played... or something where fair amount of play is being rewarded fairly.

[ProtekYoNuts]

Transfer the money back to your step brother cash out the rest 300 or so then after you cashout have your step brother send the 300 back to your account?

[liladypokerpro]

Yeah but watch what is going to happen. I will get my 1c Rakeback commission transfered to this account and have my VPP count reset.

If that worries you frob hun, you can change your settings for your commission to be paid to PayPal or some other source temporarily, until this gets sorted out, then switch it back to Stars when it's over with.

[EliminateU]

If that worries you frob hun, you can change your settings for your commission to be paid to PayPal or some other source temporarily, until this gets sorted out, then switch it back to Stars when it's over with.

i thought p-stars did not offer any rakeback. is that wrong?

[big_rob187]

poker stars sucks big floppy donkey dick

[frob23]

Yesterday morning, I finally got enough of the points to cash out my $300. It took a few days playing an hour or so of $25NL each day. After I finally got enough points, I suddenly didn't want to cash out.

But I did anyway. Because if I am going to play that high, I'll do it on a site that I have more money on and I get rakeback from. Still it did cross my mind to leave it on there.

I cashed out everything except $50 even. That way I have something to play with on there if I want. And I actually made about $33 in the process of getting the VPP to cash out. So I can't really complain. It isn't horrible to have to play that limit but that was never the point. I shouldn't have to change the limits or amount of time I play to have access to my money.

The check itself hasn't officially been cut or sent yet. I know that takes a bit. So maybe they will find some stupid reason to reject it again. But I am optimistic this time.

[C8H10N4O2]

They have never given me any problems with cashing out, and out of all the sites I've played, I've cashed out from PS the most. I had never heard of the transfer situation, but I'm glad you mentioned it. I doubt there will be any reason they'll reject you now that you've met the restrictions of that transfer situation.

[liladypokerpro]

i thought p-stars did not offer any rakeback. is that wrong?

Stars doesn't offer rakeback, but rakeback does offer Stars as a deposit option for rakeback commission, which is what he was referring to.

[ajtoulson]

yup pokerstars cashout policy is a joke. everytime they find a situation they do not like these mysterious new cash out policies emerge that no one has ever heard of. It takes the piss