Are micro-stake games harder than bigger stakes

[C4R15]

Doe's anyone else find micro-stakes games harder to beat than the higher stake games. As people call you down with complete rags and either beat you on the turn or the river? Take it they just get lucky but it's really annoying losing when your well in the lead.

[frob23]

The short answer is: No, micro-stakes are not harder to beat than higher stakes games.

Yes you are going to get called a lot. But if you can't beat someone who is going to call your bets all the time, you need to rethink your game. It can be extremely frustrating to get drawn out on, over and over, but if you're playing right... the times they call and don't draw out will more than make up for those times they do. You just need to adjust your game and accept higher levels of variance for those times you will get drawn out on.

This is especially frustrating for me because I'm having a monster of a time with $10NL. I just can't seem to turn a profit on it. But I will, if I play it enough. The players are making mistakes that will be profitable for me in the long term. In the short-term, I am down several buy-ins though. Still, the way people play, the game are very easy to beat. Sometimes you'll take a beating but that's ok.

[GainerRakeback]

See the very recent post by ClearWheezy in the General Poker forum on this very subject.

I started playing .01/.02 at FTP ($2 buy-in) with winnings from a Rackback FT freeroll. I've lost some big pots to bigger hands, but thus far I havent had a bad beat since I play only strong starting hands and bet them very strong after flop to discourage chasing. Make them pay big to draw out on you. I observe that when a mico player pushes all-in after the turn or river, it usually means they have gotten to a monster hand. They should slow play it to get more value but they get too excited and push hoping for a call. That's the clue for me. I dont push unless I'm positive I'm gonna win. It's a cash game, not a tourney, you can sit as long as you want.

It's not impossible to win at this level, but you must be real patient and fold a lot of hands, pre-flop and post flop. Dont chase, or speculate too much, especially out of position. Also, set a goal. If I get a 40% return at a session, I go a few more orbits and stop. Or if I'm sitting with $3 and everyone has .50, how much more can you win? Move to a table with money. Or if a player with .25 raises preflop to .12, why call and hope to hit with a marginal hand? How much more can you win from the guy? I always look to see how much the "implied odds" are. Play a strong hand, but if the guy has no money behind, fold and move on; dont risk it for a small potential return. You want to hit big hands against players with money to win.

[C4R15]

Thanks for the advice. I'm glad it's not just me, hopefully through time i'll rise to your level of game. Cheers anyway. Might meet you at a higher table one day, in my dreams!

[frob23]

Thanks for the advice. I'm glad it's not just me, hopefully through time i'll rise to your level of game. Cheers anyway. Might meet you at a higher table one day, in my dreams!

$10NL isn't a high table (it's $0.05/$0.10NL). So you might see me around soon. I typically play stakes between $0.01/$0.02NL - $0.10/$0.25NL ($2NL-$25NL) and find them all to be generally beatable. I've observed higher levels and have played higher levels for friends while they step away from the keyboard and the play is tighter but harder to beat. I've played higher live, but I find that $200NL to $500NL live can play like $10NL online. Those people are crazy.

So you'll probably see me around if you're playing through those levels on a site I play on. But yeah, the variance and be draining at times. I have a whole rant here about my inability to beat $10NL over the last 10k hands and how much that's driving me nuts when I can beat all the other levels I play (above and below it).

Edit: I also have little desire to move to a higher limit. I am just about bankrolled for $50NL on one site I play on but I have no real desire to move up. I enjoy the micro limits because I find them a good distraction after work and losing a buy-in doesn't really phase me. I might gradually move up but I truly enjoy the micro-limits. You get a lot of bad beats but you can afford a bunch of those because people will be paying off your big hands more often.

[frob23]

Right after I posted that first comment and before I posted the second one, I jumped in a $10NL game on Nordica. I played 5 rotations (41 hands) and made 98xBB. So, I basically made a buy-in. Which is not bad considering how I run. I just stayed focused and waited for a couple big hands.

In one, I gave someone a beat. I flopped top two pair and they flopped the nut straight. I led right out and they decided to slow-play and flat-called me. The turn filled me up and THEN they wanted to play for stacks. You have to love people who let you over-take them before they put any real amount of money in. I just wish he'd had more than 50xBB. Still, 47 of those big blinds went in after he'd gone hopelessly behind. Don't let that be you. Had he gotten all that in on the flop, it would be a bad beat. But, as it was, it was just a regular beat because he played both streets wrong.

If you can get someone to call off their stack when you're holding the nuts, and you can at these levels, you're bound to make a profit. I'm still down a bunch at $10NL. But, I will rebuild all those losses and beat it.

[braveboat27]

I don't think microstakes are harder, just more unpredictable. Some of your opponents are real wild cards, playing good solid poker before just taking a walk on the wild side at the drop of a hat...

I've been playing at the $.50/1.00 level and profitably, where at the $.25/.50, I am losing.

[braveboat27]

$10NL isn't a high table (it's $0.05/$0.10NL).

Why is .05/.1o called $10NL??

[frob23]

Why is .05/.1o called $10NL??

Because a 'typical' full buy-in is $10. So the standard for low and micro-stakes games is to refer to them as 100 times the big blind. $0.10/$0.25NL is $25NL. As you can see it's much easier to type and, once you know the convention, conveys the same information.

This remains true even if the max. allowed buy-in is more (or less) than 100BB. So, $0.02/$0.05 is still $5NL on PokerStars even though you can sit with $10.

[legroux]

as my br allows to play max nl10 ( ok on omaha its pl25) its depending on the poker room you are playing.
as i used many ndb i saw many rooms and one was absolute.in my opinion there are good games on this limit and the players think a bit more if you have a look on pkr .. wow ... no words...
as i liked to play on absolute ( and busted my freeroll on my first ever poker months by no taking care of brm) i´m using ub with the rakeback offerd by this site.
if you know how to play on these limits ok, but you have to play on the right rooms, or you will learn false poker

[RiverstarsVictim]

as my br allows to play max nl10 ( ok on omaha its pl25)

I'm totally confused by this. My understanding of omaha is the variance is much higher so a much larger BR is required. I think you need to revisit BRM?

[phosphorescence]

I'm totally confused by this. My understanding of omaha is the variance is much higher so a much larger BR is required. I think you need to revisit BRM?

QFT and all that. legroux's statement makes no sense whatsoever.

even if you think you're much better at PLO than NLHE you still need to follow proper BRM, especially for a game with higher variance.

[bookerp]

i fnd that drawing hands, such as suited connectors can be played more often at lower limits, my experiance is that when these hit, they pay off.
im slightly profiting at micro's, but keep getting screwed when i raise then reraise PF with KK, only for the muppet to put me all in with the usual AA.
these big losses have seriously affected my profit graph, and fustrated me no-end.

anyone agree or disagree with my suited cards theory?

as posted in a previous post about when someone goes allin on the river, yes they do usually have the nuts and its time to fold.

[frob23]

i fnd that drawing hands, such as suited connectors can be played more often at lower limits, my experiance is that when these hit, they pay off.
im slightly profiting at micro's, but keep getting screwed when i raise then reraise PF with KK, only for the muppet to put me all in with the usual AA.
these big losses have seriously affected my profit graph, and fustrated me no-end.

anyone agree or disagree with my suited cards theory?

as posted in a previous post about when someone goes allin on the river, yes they do usually have the nuts and its time to fold.

If you read PNL (Professional No Limit) you'll find a long discussion on why big pairs and top pair type hands (like AA, KK, AK, etc) are hard to play right at 100xBB and often end up being costly while drawing hands can be very profitable and play decently at those stack sizes. When you combine the loose and wild style these people play and their willingness to pay off made hands, it's easy to see that your suited connector type hands could be showing more of a profit against these people.

[Jonathank]

if you can't beat the micro no foldem games then you are simply a weak player. no if's and's or but's.

but hopefully you enjoy playing cause you aint gonna win anywhere if you can't win there.

[smiler90]

Lol, is this a serious question?

Just dont bluff at low stakes, play pure position and strong hands.

over a large sample size you will beat these games very easily just by keeping it simple.

[Clearwheezy]

that's where my issues come around. i start thinking people are actually good at the micros.

[don. scoobie]

there are def different styles of play at different limits , maybe ur style does not suit the micro levels because u seen alot of tv poker and have taken on that style of play. i still rem the 1st bluff i got through in a live game a few years ago, and thought WOW what a charge .but the longer i have played on line at the lower levels buiding up , i realised that TIGHT IS RIGHT. if your opponents dont realise how scary a card should be then there is no point in trying to represent that draw filling. these moves r used when your playin people who can actually put down a set and be right to do so. gl , hope u get the patience to play these levels and move up where u can use these moves selectively.

[HardWath]

The micro stakes simply kill me

I have approached them with all kinds of different strategies and no matter how I do it, the results are always the same. Whether I play loose or tight, or very tight... every time I make small incremental gains. Soon my chip stack is 25% to 50% higher then what I started with and then finally a dream hand and flop comes. Here is an example of what happens

AA in the pocket and I have the button
Healthy raise preflop... called by two others.

Flop comes A, 8, 4... perfect, now I have a set of A's

One person bets, the other person folds, I then raise his bet.

He responds with an all-in bet and the obvious choice is for me to call his all-in.

Now I see that he has a 77 in the pocket and I grin looking at my set of Aces. The turn and the river give a 5 and then a 6 which give him a strait to 8.... I lose.

I understand that this kind of thing happens but it happens to me in almost EVERY cash game that I play at the micro stakes. It doesn’t just happen to me either, I watch it happen to person after person after person and usually it’s the person with the AA, KK, QQ, top pair, or two pair that gets screwed.

Typically when the betting heats up there are 3 or 4 people involved and usually at most two of them have cards that justify the level of bets they are calling or placing. However time after time after time, it’s the guy with AK, AA, or KK that loses to the person betting with 2-7o that hits a set of 2's on the turn or river.

The problem with the micro stakes is that people will call anything if they are holding a hand with any kind of potential. At a 10 handed table, a lot of flops there are usually several people with hands that show some kind of potential. In a normal game you can knock out the weaker hands with strong bets but not in the micros and many times those weaker hands become something much stronger and often beat your top pair or set which ends up being very costly.

[travz21]

The micro stakes simply kill me

I have approached them with all kinds of different strategies and no matter how I do it, the results are always the same. Whether I play loose or tight, or very tight... every time I make small incremental gains. Soon my chip stack is 25% to 50% higher then what I started with and then finally a dream hand and flop comes. Here is an example of what happens

AA in the pocket and I have the button
Healthy raise preflop... called by two others.

Flop comes A, 8, 4... perfect, now I have a set of A's

One person bets, the other person folds, I then raise his bet.

He responds with an all-in bet and the obvious choice is for me to call his all-in.

Now I see that he has a 77 in the pocket and I grin looking at my set of Aces. The turn and the river give a 5 and then a 6 which give him a strait to 8.... I lose.

I understand that this kind of thing happens but it happens to me in almost EVERY cash game that I play at the micro stakes. It doesn’t just happen to me either, I watch it happen to person after person after person and usually it’s the person with the AA, KK, QQ, top pair, or two pair that gets screwed.

Typically when the betting heats up there are 3 or 4 people involved and usually at most two of them have cards that justify the level of bets they are calling or placing. However time after time after time, it’s the guy with AK, AA, or KK that loses to the person betting with 2-7o that hits a set of 2's on the turn or river.

The problem with the micro stakes is that people will call anything if they are holding a hand with any kind of potential. At a 10 handed table, a lot of flops there are usually several people with hands that show some kind of potential. In a normal game you can knock out the weaker hands with strong bets but not in the micros and many times those weaker hands become something much stronger and often beat your top pair or set which ends up being very costly.

I don't see the problem here. You have people calling with way worse hands a lot of the time. Learn to make laydowns so you won't always bust with overpairs and you will destroy microstakes.