how important is the button really?

[pokerbucket]

So for 9 player sitNgos when everyone folds to you and you have the button do you raise with any two cards? I know a lot of people say you should but I don't do it.. in fact I find myself folding my button a lot. What do you guys do on the button with no hand?

[frob23]

That really depends on the blinds (and their stack sizes) and how they are playing. Against some people, I will raise almost any two cards. Against others, I am not raising without something that I don't mind seeing a flop with. But I am raising much more often from the button than anywhere else at the table. I am easily 2-3 times more likely to play a hand from the button than I am from any other seat.

How important is it? It's essential... assuming you play position well.

[gamer4life27]

Position is essential if you are playing a NL game. I find myself raising with ATC most of the time from the button, CO, and MP + 2 (in three handed games) with high blinds at my home game. It all depends on how often the players will fold to your raise, your table image, your stack size relative to the blinds, there stack sizes in relation to the blinds, and how often they defend their blinds.

But more times than not, I will raise from those three positions more than anything with most, if not, any cards when it is folded to me (even sometimes when a few limpers are in). You raise from the button because even if you get called, you are in position, and you represented strength pre-flop. So it is MUCH easier to bluff at the pot. And if they bet into you, then you have an easy fold if you missed the flop.

It's basically the best position to bluff from because you get to see the action before you, and you get to show strength before the flop to give yourself more of a chance to represent that you have a big hand.

[braveboat27]

I'm a little more conservative from the button, perhaps. I play by raising all the "trouble hands," most Aces, and suited connectors over 3/4. If the blinds are TAG, I'll raise with a little less, expecting to pick up the blinds, more often than not.

Early in a tournament, when the blinds are inconsequential, I'm folding most everything below the top 15 hands. Table image is a lot more important to me early on. As the blinds increase, and certainly once the antes kick in, I'm loosening up my raising range, and pounding the table from the button.

Well, OK, maybe not pounding the table, but raising and betting more often than not, for this old Nit...

[travz21]

I think the button is less important in tourney structure, but very important in cash games.

[travz21]

In tournaments, you can't afford to take many shots compared to cash games since it's all about surviving. Therefore, I'm playing my cards more than I'm playing the opponents. I'm basically only playing premiums and have a VP$IP around 13% and pf raise 11%.

In cash games, I'm not playing my cards as much as I'm playing the opponents. I'll still be very conservative in early position (VP$IP and pfr around 10%), and open up the closer to the button I get. I'm around a 26% pfr in late position. I'm pretty confident about these numbers and have had increasing success ever since I started playing disciplined AND aggressive.

[C8H10N4O2]

I have a fortune from a fortune cookie taped on my dealer button... it says "You should be able to make money and hold onto it." To the casual players in the room, they don't really think anything of it, but to the few of us who play poker a lot, it serves as a reminder at how profitable the button is in our cash games.

[gamer4life27]

I have to disagree with you travz21. The button is essential in tournaments also. When blinds are high, and you are looking to survive as you say it, then you have to have room to survive. You can't sit back all the time and wait for semi-decent hands to stay alive in a tournament.

In the early stages of a tournament with blinds at 5/10 - 25/50, the blinds are so low that I don't even bother trying to pick up the blinds. But when the blinds are at 200/400 with a 50 ante, then I steal blinds left and right.

In short handed games, I like to steal the blinds from both UTG and the button (I raise from various positions, but I tend to raise from the button and UTG the most. Button because it has position and represents strength, and UTG because people fear early position raisers because they have to have a hand or else they wouldn't raise with all the action in front of them.) I mainly play like that in short handed games, or when it gets down to 5-6 handed and then on.

When I am playing cash game, I want to play my position more because your chips are more valuable (to me at least) in cash game because that is real cash you are dealing with. In tournaments, you pay one flat fee and thats it. You get a certain amount of chips in tournaments, and thats it (unless it's a re-buy).

But in cash games, you can have any amount of chips, you can sit down at any time, you can leave at any time, and you can either lose or gain a large chunk of your bankroll depending on your BRM and mental status.

I am not saying I am playing the button or position more in tournaments than I do cash games, I am saying that I value the fact that in both tournaments and cash games you use position against your opponents.

If you were to play like you do in cash games in tournaments, then you will see than you will get a bigger chip stack, you will cash more, and you see a big difference in people's playing styles.

[travz21]

I am not saying I am playing the button or position more in tournaments than I do cash games, I am saying that I value the fact that in both tournaments and cash games you use position against your opponents.

If you were to play like you do in cash games in tournaments, then you will see than you will get a bigger chip stack, you will cash more, and you see a big difference in people's playing styles.

To the first quoted paragraph...obviously position is important in poker.

To the second quoted paragraph...what?!? Playing the same in cash and tournaments is so bad that I don't know where to start. And it makes no sense from what you wrote earlier in your post. Do you try and steal from UTG in cash games too? That last paragraph was false in everything you said. You can not play the same in tournaments as you do in cash and hope to see more consistent results.

Besides that, I agree with mostly everything else. However, once again, I stated that the button is less important in tournaments. I never said it wasn't essential. The button is essential in poker, no matter what game you're playing. And like you said, if you can steal from UTG in tournaments in later stages, why is the button even anywhere near as important in tourneys compared to cash games?

[gamer4life27]

It's a personal decision to try and steal from UTG in short handed games in tournaments only. I do not try to steal the blinds in cash game, so I find the button less usefull in cash.

And to explain my second paragraph: I tried to say to play the same in tournaments that you do in cash game because you stated that you play position more in cash game. Giving up a round of blinds and then folding position is just begging to be blinded out. If you are OTB in a tournament with high blinds, try to steal them as much as possible with less than semi-decent hand (I tend to fold garbage on the button becaues I do not want to get caught with it). You want to have a hand that you don't mind seeing a flop with (could be two suited cards, connectors, one gappers, two gappers, face cards, pocket pair, etc.). Put a CRAP LOAD of hands into your list of hands you wouldn't mind seeing OTB, and then you see a significant change in your chip stacks (it will be bigger more often than not), how many more times you cash (more because you are playing proper tournament strategy), and you will see a big difference in people's playing styles because it will open up your eyes to the fact that everyone steals blinds from the button more often than not.

And, you get to see who will lay down their blinds to you if you raise in what position.

[travz21]

Gross. I don't want to explain anymore.

[gamer4life27]

If you want to play it cautious and fold your position unless you have a good hand, then that's fine by me. I am not the one who would be suffering in most of my tournaments because of it.

I play that way because it gets me far in tournaments. It helps my chip stack to steal the blinds when they are high. If I have a HUGE chip lead, and everyone else has >18 BB left, I steal them. If I have a huge chip lead and everyone has an average of 37+ BB, I tend to not try and steal the blinds that much. I do try once in a while, but not that often.

If I am at a table with everyone who has the same chip stack as me (short stacks, average stacks, or chip leaders), I steal the blinds a lot to try and separate myself from the pack. If I am short stacked, I steal the blinds to try and build up my chip stack so when I do get a hand I get more chips. I do not tend to steal the blinds that much (if any) when I am short stacked, but it is something I do every once in a while.

If I am average stack, I try to steal the blinds to both try and keep my stack average, and to try and build up a big chip stack so that I can make the money easier.

In cash games, I don't steal the blinds because I sit down with 100x BB. So whats the point if everyone sits down with 100x BB? It's not much use.

And I will explain my short handed blind stealing:

In short handed games, you have to loosen up your game more than a 9-person table. If you were waiting around for the same premium hands in a 6-person game that you were in a 9-person game, then you will not get very far with high blinds. On the button, if you steal the blinds, then you can wait one more orbit for a good hand. If you don't get a good hand, then those blinds that you stole would make you get one free orbit of cards. If you do get a good hand, then you will get paid off more often than not (depending on how you play it).

It's a personal thing that I steal from UTG. Everyone has there playing styles, that is just mine in a MTT when it gets down to 6-handed, or I am playing Short Handed tabled tournaments. I have my reasons and my background on it.

I think that is a pretty good description of why you should steal the blinds in a tournament when the blinds are high.

[HeyKidMove]

You should still be attempting to steal blinds in cash games. The extra bb can help boost your winrate.

[gamer4life27]

Yes it can, but I just find it less important if you keep trying to steal the blinds in cash games. It's just a personal oppinion that I do not try to steal the blinds in cash. I do sometimes, but just not as much as I do in tournaments. That is all I am saying.

[travz21]

So, gamer, you just told me how you don't play tournaments like you play cash games. Thanks for clearing that up. I'm not sure why you said that in your earlier post.

And I hope you weren't explaining your entire tournament strat to me, because I understood already. Yes, even the "HIGH BLINDS"...thanks.

Also, I think you're looking at cash games the wrong way and/or are playing them the wrong way. That's just based on the things I've read on this thread.

I'm curious, why don't you attempt to steal blinds deep in a tourney from UTG on a full table? Stealing UTG in a 6max table doesn't really show too much strength in my opinion. Maybe you've just run hot while practicing that strategy. In a full table, an UTG raiser should be put on TT-AA or AK. This makes it much easier to steal in a full ring. 6max UTG raiser can have like triple the range compared to 9max, making stealing considerably harder.

[gamer4life27]

HAHA! Why would I try to explain my tournament strategy all in one post? For one, I do not have one particular strategy to play in MTT's or SnG's. For two, that is just an explanation of why you would steal the blinds.

I don't the same way in tournaments than I do for cash games that is for sure. I think anyone here can say that.

And for me to steal UTG is not something I do all the time. I hardley steal the blinds from that position. But that is my 3rd place in which I 'steal the blinds from'. I should have mentioned earlier that people notice that I raise a lot from (in rank) UTG, CO, UTG. I don't mean to, it's just a personal thing I guess. I may do it without knowing it, but I know I do do it. If that makes sense.

And I think it's because I am losening up my game in 6-handed play, so that is why my range is so wide for me to raise rather than in a full table. Plus, at a full table, you have to go through 5 people before it gets to the button. In a 6-person table, you only have to go through 2 people before it gets to the button. That is just the way I look at it.