Was this a donk move?

[frob23]

Alright, this caused some fun times. There was some debate as to whether or not this was a donk move. I figure a nice poll will make it fun but if you vote you need to include your commentary and reasoning below. I'll include mine as well in a response to this. I thought about changing the names but there's not a compelling reason to, in my opinion.

PTOTW Tournament: Level 2: $10/$20

0: Clearwheezy: $2825.00
1: FullGainer: $1065.00
2: emoneypitt: $960.00
3: GrumpyMoFo: $895.00
5: TheLakeDweller: $940.00
7: Stellafella: $620.00
8: frob2600: $1040.00
9: plays4pizza: $1625.00

TheLakeDweller posts $10, Stellafella posts $20, 1 fold, plays4pizza raises to $80, Clearwheezy raises to $280, 5 folds, plays4pizza folds and shows.

plays4pizza shows T T
Clearwheezy shows A Q

plays4pizza, "donkey"
Clearwheezy, "maybe that's something we can talk about in rb"
plays4pizza, "no"
Clearwheezy, "why was that a donk move"
Clearwheezy, "frob, was that a donk move?"

At the time I was asked this, I was unable to answer because I had been on the phone and missed the hand. My distraction during this game probably cost me in the tournament but that's another matter.

[frob23]

Here is my reasoning and my answer. I propose that it could be wrong because I'm often wrong. But still these are my thoughts.

pizza, who is UTG+1 in this hand makes it 4xBB to go with TT. Eight-handed, this is pretty standard. I have no problems with it. Given the tournament situation, I might be limping this here a small percentage of the time but most of the time I'm raising it up.

Wheezy looks down at AQs, which is a good hand also. It's a great hand to play with position on the flop. It's not always great after a raise from an UTG+1 player but it's also not something I would be quick to lay down here. I figure that folding is too nitty an option even for me. That leaves flat calling or raising.

He still has 5 people to act behind him if he flats. And those people are going to be getting 19-8 pot odds to call or better (it someone calls in front of them). Those aren't great odds to start with but it's certainly possible that someone could sweeten the pot by calling. And if we have a caller or callers behind us, we're likely going to be playing this hand out of position with a hand that could have easily been beat already. And then there is the possibility of another player putting a squeeze play on him and raising... which means he almost certainly would need to lay down AQs there.

For those reasons, I am not a fan of calling. If he was on the button and was sure to have position the entire hand and unlikely to be squeezed then I might lean more towards calling. But from fairly early position, I'm probably going to have to raise AQs here.

So, the question becomes how much to raise?

A minraise is to $160 (8xBB) -- 9.8% of the effective stacks
A double of the raise is $240 (12xBB) -- 14.8% of the effective stacks
Raising pot would be $270 (13.5xBB) -- 16.6% of the effective stacks
His raise was to $280 (14xBB) -- 17.2% of the effective stacks.
An an over-sized raise to $330 (16.5xBB) would put in more than 20% of the stacks. I don't want to put in more than 20% of my stack pre-flop unless I have a very good plan about what happens if I get raised or there's a bet on the flop.

I hate the minraise. It gives pot-odds that are far too appealing and doesn't help define the hand at all. It might reduce the chance of playing the hand out of position but not by much. I see very little difference between a 3-times raise, a pot-sized raise, and his slightly over pot-sized raise. We're putting in 12-14xBB and about 15-17% of the starting stacks. This sends a clear message that we're serious about this hand but isn't too much that we can't fold if pizza comes over the top. If we get called, we'll have position with a pot of $590 and working stacks of $1345 -- so we're getting it in on the flop or turn if we hit. But might be able to steal with a bet of $200-$250 if it's checked to us on the flop.

Given that I would rather end this hand now. Given that I don't want to play out of position with AQs. Given the fairly deep stack sizes and the possibility to get away if 4-bet. And given that the raise was roughly the same as a pot-sized raise... I have no problem with this.

For those basic reasons, I say it's not a donk move. I think it's pretty standard. The raise might be a tad bit larger than was necessary but it's not outrageous. As for showing the hand... that wasn't necessary. I think both players could have avoided the whole argument if neither showed. But it's all fun, so no big deal.

[phaul]

Given that I would rather end this hand now.

So you're bluffing?

This is one of the biggest (non-trivial) mistakes I see playing SnGs. If you are raising, it is either a bluff or for value. If it's a bluff, I'm folding to a shove. If it's for value, I'm shipping my stack in. I assume you don't want to turn AQs into a bluff. So if you raise, it's for value. So, what's villain's calling range? Assuming he's not retarded, I'd give him an absolute loosest calling range of AJ+, 99+. AQs has 45.6% against this range, so it's not for value. For it to be a value raise he needs to be calling down to A9s. So even if you never get shoved on it's bad, and shipping it in seems awful against anyone competent.

Folding sucks pretty hard IMO. So call. Your hand is massively underrepped and is good against his range, which includes quite a few weaker aces, plus pairs which he will cbet, plus you have position.

I also think the raise size should be $240, but that's just feel-based. It seems less spewy and he's a lot more likely to call with more marginal holdings.

[phaul]

Not sure the play is bad enough to warrant being called a donkey though

[C8H10N4O2]

Seems pretty standard to me, definitely not in the range of what I would consider "donk" plays.

[travz21]

He's a chip leader and just gambling with a borderline unprofitable move. If he was on the button, the play would be acceptable. But since there's 3 people to act before it gets around to the blinds, it's a pretty bad move I think. If you get called from someone who has position on you, you pretty much have to check/fold unless you flop some kind of draw. And if you get reraised you obv have to fold.

So overall, I'd really avoid playing this hand altogether.

[travz21]

Also, I consider showing the TT a donk move as well. Unless you want to show everyone that you're going to be pushed around with anything less than JJ, I think it's a very bad move. Showing cards when you don't have to is almost always hurting you.

[liladypokerpro]

Just looks to me like the chip leader was using his muscle (his stack) to push the others out with a fairly decent drawing hand...which honestly, depending on the reads he had on the table, might have been the ideal move if he knew that he could steal by making that particular move. In his position, with that hand, I would have likely done the same if I felt confident that I could steal the pot right then and there. It depends on what he'd seen gamer raise with (and show) previous to that as to whether he was comfortable going over the top of his raise with the intention of stealing, or if he felt that his hand could possibly blossom into something smackdown worthy after the flop.

Obviously I wasn't in this game to see what all happened, so I don't know... I'm just speaking as if it were me with certain variables in effect, I would have been comfortable with the made move if I had a solid read and knew a steal was an ideal option.

PS > Sorry gamer, I love ya, but why on earth would you show that fold? Did you show a lot in this game? If so that could have been what bit you in the butt...

[emoneypitt]

I probably wouldn't have reraised with AQs at UTG+2 postiion. It's not a bad move but it's definitely risky. If someone else or the original raiser shoves, then you most likely have to lay it down. It's too good of a hand to just lay down from a standard PFR though, especially at this stage of the tournament.

I'm probably just calling here to see the action around the table and the flop. If someone else around the table has a big hand, you're going to find out. It's better to lay down 4BB than to lay down 14BB or worse, have someone double up on you or take your stack. Even a lot of people with AK are going to be aggressive. Keep in mind too that this was a 10 player tournament where the top 5 got paid. I'm probably going to be extra conservative in this situation with anything less than a premium hand. Yes, I know we weren't playing for millions but just illustrating the point.

Sure, sometimes you do get burned if someone else calls in with say, 77, and hits their set but it's not likely. If you do hit your flop, you can milk some more chips out of an aggressive player who overplays pocket pairs and you'll usually be able to tell if someone has you beat from the flop action.

Given that there was an immediate reraise though, folding the TT pre was the right move IMO. 99-JJ are tough hands to play, especially early in position. With a reraise, most times you're either facing a bigger pocket pair or at least AK, so you're no better that a coin flip all in pre.

So in sum, not a donk move given the strength of hand but a calculated risk.

Showing the TT was the worst part of this IMO. You want to give the other players on the table as little info on you as possible and when you do have to show a hand, make it a strong winning hand.

[frob23]

So you're bluffing?

In a way, yes. I do not expect AQs to be the best hand here most of the time. It's good enough that I have hope if I get called but it's still a drawing hand at this point. I believe I made it clear that I'm folding to a raise here pre-flop.

And then there is the possibility of another player putting a squeeze play on him and raising... which means he almost certainly would need to lay down AQs there.
[...]
we're serious about this hand but isn't too much that we can't fold if pizza comes over the top.

It might help to point out that pizza has already been tilting in this game and Wheezy could easily think his pre-flop opening range was wider than it should be from UTG+1. So a raise is certainly better to punish him if he's raising too light. It turns out that pizza wasn't getting out of line in this hand but it certainly seemed possible in the moment.

Still, if we are raised again pre-flop then AQs is unplayable. And I do let it go. If we get called and flop a single pair, we're still not too happy with the hand -- not happy enough to want to get all-in. But we'll be heads up and in position so that will help.

But if we get called and have someone call behind us... we could hit and still have to fold. If the flop was K-Q-x for example and either of the players bet or raised. If we miss (which happens most of the time) we would have to be concerned with a player behind us. If there's no one behind us, we can still expect pizza to bet most flops since he was just called pre-flop. We'll have to fold most of the time there too.

Yeah, with AQs against and UTG+1 raiser... I am perfectly happy ending the hand pre-flop.

[DeadBabySoup]

i wouldn't say it's a donk move. but it's not a smart move either. if he re-raises all in, AQ has to fold. calling a re-raise all in with AQ would be a donk move.

[phosphorescence]

it's not a 'donk move', but flatting is better imo.

[gamer4life27]

My thinking:

Yes, I admit that I was tilting a little bit. But don't do what other people do and open up there game so wide that they self-implode. So my raise UTG+1 was just as good me tilting or not tilitng, but I know that no one knows this.

For someone to come over the top of a 4x BB raise from UTG+1 in a 10 handed game says something to me, that it represents massive strength. Now, given the fact that everyone thinks that my game has opened up and I am tilting, it is more likely that someone has some sort of semi-premium Ace (AJ-AK). And since it is still early in the tournament, I would not want to be in a coin flip this early for roughly 15% of my stack. I can, but not out of position.

If I miss the flop (which I more than likely will), and over cards hit the flop, then I have to check-fold. If I hit the flop, I am more than likely going to win a small pot. So why risk the $200 when more times than not you are going to check-fold? If I was behind Clear, I would have called on the flop because I had position. But given the situation, I wanted to wait until I was in a better spot (PF at least) to call.

Lilady - No, I wasn't showing my hands all the time (at least I don't think I was). I only showed that because I wanted to show people that I was playing my normal game. It wasn't intended to show that I could be bullied around, but more for the intention that even though it may seem like I am on tilt, I am still a threat when I raise.

[travz21]

I am still a threat when I raise.

How are you a threat when you raise/fold? That's not very threatening. If you were still threatening, you would 4bet. It just shows that you can be bullied around. I'm gonna be 3betting you all day if you fold/show 10's. So, now you're going to have to wait for AA or KK to feel comfortable raising since you showed you can be pushed off a solid hand without any thought to it.

I'm not questioning your fold, it was the right play. You just shouldn't give people info on what you're folding, or any of your cards for that matter.