Playing the Short Stack Questions

[C8H10N4O2]

Generally is 10BB or less considered the short stack? That's always the general amount I figure when determining if I'm on the short stack or not. What is generally "short" when considering how many orbits you have left in an ante situation? If you have a reasonably tight table image at a reasonably tight table, what types of hands are you willing to raise/chuck it all in in an unopened pot from the various positions? I think I'm playing the short stack too tight in tournaments when the antes start, so what are the general guidelines for this situation?

Earlier I posted a thread and it mentioned that the stronger player will go all in with a lot wider range than the weaker player due to the fact that when you're on the short stack, the wider range (something like 33% of hands) will be more profitable due to the chance of stealing the blinds/antes combined with having "live cards" etc... so what should the range be?

I really need to improve on this area of my game I think. In live sng style tournaments, I'm 5 for 7 in getting in the money. Usually 27-90 people, and I've made the final table every time, but my best finish was 3rd.

I only bring that up because I've noticed that in online MTT's (1500-3000) people, I am very capable of getting into the money, but I RARELY go deep in these. So when all is said in done, I spend 2-4 hours 1.5x-2x my money and then wonder why I just wasted all that time when I could have played an SNG for the same amount and made more in less time. I realize I need to risk more in order to get deeper, but I'm not sure what is optimal strategy at this point from the short stack. Also, the times I've won 180 person sng's, or gone deep in the final table, it's usually because I wake up with a premium hand and move on above the short stack stage near the bubble, which enables me to steal lots of pots without the risk of ruin. Thanks for any help.

[thegrizz1111]

I only bring that up because I've noticed that in online MTT's (1500-3000) people, I am very capable of getting into the money, but I RARELY go deep in these. .

everyone ralely goes deep in these. That is alot of players

sorry but Im not a very good mtt holdem player so i dont really have any advice for you. Just dont beat yourself up for not frequently final tabling large mtt's. it only takes one or two good finishes in these to come out way ahead.

[phosphorescence]

you've gotta be willing to shove a lot, with junk sometimes, when you're the short stack. if you keep waiting by the time you have a decent hand you'll have so few chips that doubling up won't help much. 10BBs and below is the red zone.

i don't have any hard and fast rules for when/where to shove, but in general just look out for who is particularly tight on your left and try to steal from them (obviously not if they're too far away from you though, you don't want to open-shoving rags in EP unless you absolutely have to)

open shoving SB is good for stealing, as is the button. I would go as far as to say that with 7/8 and maybe up to 10BBs (maybe even more) you should be open-shoving the button/SB with any two cards.

also try restealing from the blinds before your stack gets down to critical level - but only resteal from CO/button/SB openers, esp. aggro ones. you need to have enough chips to scare them off though, so don't be afraid of going out (or saying 'i've got 17BBs, i don't have to make any moves yet). if you think someone is weak then go for it.

you might want to google pushbot charts, which tells you which hands you can profitably shove from every position with whichever hand, and whatever stack size (in terms of M). you might not want to follow it religiously as it's pretty loose, but it'll probably help you open up your shoving ranges.

if you ever get down to 5/6BBs or below and it hasn't been opened yet, i'd probably just shove from any position with ATC.

[C8H10N4O2]

everyone ralely goes deep in these. That is alot of players

sorry but Im not a very good mtt holdem player so i dont really have any advice for you. Just dont beat yourself up for not frequently final tabling large mtt's. it only takes one or two good finishes in these to come out way ahead.

Oh I realize this, but I've played in several, and I know I'm rarely going to go deep, but it'd be nice to be not busting out right after the bubble goes out. I'd trade a few minor cashes for the chance to be able to have a larger chip stack during the bubble time, I just can never seem to build one up, and I feel like it's because I don't loosen up properly when the time calls for it.



phosphorescence,
Thanks... that's the type of answer I'm looking for. I appreciate your taking the time to type it all out.

[travz21]

Even the great players RARELY go deep. If you final table 4% of the time in the long run, you're way ahead of the game. That's 1 out of 25 only. And if you run cold it could be 1 in 100. I wouldn't worry about your play too much. There's a lot of different opinions from big name pros on how to play the short stack. Helmuth will basically blind himself away and others will shove in when behind and hope to get some chips to work with. So there obviously isn't a clear cut answer. Personally, I like to wait around for a hand because I'm really confident in my short stack play. I can linger around for a long time without getting knocked out, usually. Then if I get a run of a couple hands I can jump up towards the top. I find this easier than pushing and praying. Both are ok I think ,if you pick your spots right.

Whatever your preference is, you're relying on the cards to bail you out when you're a short stack, in one way or the other. Wouldn't it be nice if you could just be chip leader the whole tourney?

[C8H10N4O2]

It'd be nice if I could ever be the chip leader in more than a 180 person sng lol. Heck, it'd be nice if I could be in the top 10 ever.

I'm not even looking to "final table" here, just getting more money out of it instead of the minimum or close to the minimum would be amazing.

[travz21]

I think the answer is pretty obvious, but I'll say it anyways. Your gameplan should be this; survive and make it to the money, make it to the final table, make it to heads up, take it down. Once you make the money, I don't think you should worry about merely moving up spots. In virtually every tourney, the money jump isn't significant until you're at the final table, so it's just not worth it. Yeah, it's nice to get a little more money, but you're not playing MTT's to just cash. You won't turn any profit that way.

So it comes down to which style of play you want to execute with your shortstack, once you make the money (or even before), to give you the best shot at final tabling.

I know it can be very tough when you aren't going deep or final tabling in what seems like forever. You start to question your play and might change something that shouldn't be changed. The best advice, I think, is to stay confident in your play and stick with it. MTT's are very hit and miss. The best players in the world can go a year without final tabling. If you keep playing solid poker, results will eventually come in MTT's. Otherwise, there's always cash games for more of an instant gratification haha.

[C8H10N4O2]

Lol thanks trav. I just feel like I'm playing them poorly. I mean, I'm not a seasoned veteran in poker by any means whatsoever, so I wonder if I'm just playing them poorly or what.
Instant gratification is always fun. :-)