Cash vs. Tournaments

[Brooklynbum]

I know there's been a lot of posts regarding cash vs. tournament strategy, but I think that there hasn't been a lot of discussion about the nuances of the cash game vs. the tournament game.

I kind of think that it takes more skill to play cash games rather than tournaments. I feel like you can set up a player much better in cash games because your opponents are more likely to stay longer than in tournaments where you get moved around.

I also think the patience factor is much more pronounced in the cash game. In a tournament you can wait until you get big hands but then you might find yourself short stacked and desperate to make a move. In my experience you can fold for 2 hours straight and the hit to your stack is minimal.

There's also what I call the "continuation luck" factor. In a tournament, you need to win serveral key hands or several coin flips for your chips over the course of a tournament. Alot of those hands are of the 60-40% type of hands where you're both all-in. You have to continue to win these flips in tournaments otherwise you're out. That's hard to do over the course of a tournament. For example, how many times have you played a tournament and you're taking advantage of the smallest of edges only to have your AA get cracked in a crucial hand late in the tournament against a loose pusher or caller?

Also, there's more of the all-in type preflop type of play in tournaments. While this is an essential strategy in tournaments, I'm not so sure that it's viable for a cash game. A lot of the skill in cash occurs preflop, on the turn and the river. In tournaments it's shove and see all five cards and let the poker gods take care of the rest. Late in the tournament, you are not going to fold AA and most likely you're going to push against a raise. With the blinds in a cash game always fixed, you have to have skill to play a big hand post flop and beyond because you're most likely going to get a few callers even if you raise PF.

These are just a few observations i've noticed in when I play cash vs. tournaments. It always seem I get a lot more loose calls for all my chips in a tournament than in a cash game. i don't know maybe I'm partial to cash games rather than tournaments but that's just my thoughts on the whole thing.

[emoneypitt]

Good post. That sums it up well.

[DeadBabySoup]

There's also what I call the "continuation luck" factor. In a tournament, you need to win serveral key hands or several coin flips for your chips over the course of a tournament. Alot of those hands are of the 60-40% type of hands where you're both all-in. You have to continue to win these flips in tournaments otherwise you're out. That's hard to do over the course of a tournament. For example, how many times have you played a tournament and you're taking advantage of the smallest of edges only to have your AA get cracked in a crucial hand late in the tournament against a loose pusher or caller?

I don't agree with this. If you find yourself in several coin flips in a tournament, you're not going to be very successful. If you're all in even 3 times in a coin flip, you only have a 16% chance of surviving. That's poor tournament strategy. And it's not necessary to put yourself in those situations. Until I'm on the final table, I won't risk my tournament on a coin flip. I generally won't go all in with anything less than KK. I'll play coin flips against short stacks. But that's a different story.

[Brooklynbum]

I understand that you disagree but in my experience, the big MTT tournaments online and live for that matter, you're going to be facing several 60%-40% flips in crucial situations. Given the fast pace of the MTTs, it's almost impossible to wait for big hands to get paid off.

Also according to you Soup, you're only going all-in with nothing less than KK, to me isn't great strategy. You'll be run over many times and the one time you raise an astute player will know that you're super tight. Another example is if you have AK, and you're medium stacked - you're telling me that you're not going to call a push with that? or even AQ for that matter. You're also telling me that if you have QQ you're going to fold to a shove? Heck all it takes is one time where your AA gets cracked by JJ or something along those lines. I'm not sure the buy-ins you're playing but at the higher buy-ins it's highly unlikely to able to only play premium hands and consistently win tournaments.

I'd like to think that your variance in a tournament affects you much more than playing a cash game where you can make up those bad beats by continuing to exploit those small edges in a cash game. As a matter of fact I've made more money when I catch two pair rather than just having a big PP or AK.

I think the big difference to what you're saying Soup, is that your tight play will cash more often but I don't think it's a successful formula for winning big tournaments. In big tournaments these guys will take their chances on 60-40 flips for all their chips and not wait for only premium hands to play.

[phosphorescence]

I don't agree with this. If you find yourself in several coin flips in a tournament, you're not going to be very successful. If you're all in even 3 times in a coin flip, you only have a 16% chance of surviving. That's poor tournament strategy. And it's not necessary to put yourself in those situations. Until I'm on the final table, I won't risk my tournament on a coin flip. I generally won't go all in with anything less than KK. I'll play coin flips against short stacks. But that's a different story.

this is completely wrong strategy. brooklyn is right.
if you're not willing to take flips then you're going to get crushed by the blinds. it is NOT poor tournament strategy. and it IS necessary to put yourself in those situations. stacking off pre with AK/QQ/JJ pre is perfectly fine in the early levels (JJ bit iffy depends on reads/stacks) in the 90mans.

you're playing too tight.
i actually was on the same table as you when me and my cousin were playing together in a $3 90-man on his account, and i remember a hand where you flatted IP with AK on the early levels and luckily managed to stack AJ or AT or something on an A high board. you need to be 3betting AK all day long, and pretty much never folding it pre in those 90-mans (unless there's a LOT of action before you).

i think what you fail to realise is that when you think "hmm i have ak/aq, he's shoved against me...i'm gonna be in a flip....meh i'll fold" is that you're going to be up against aj/at/kq/kj etc a lot (these tournies play really loose), and even if you are against a pair, with all the dead money in the middle you're probably getting a great price on a flip.

i used to have the same problem as you in tournies, playing too tight in general. you can make a sound profit playing like this, but you really need to open up your game in the late stages to maximise your profitability.

oh yeah, tournies have more fish than cash games, but i agree that cash games require deeper thought and are more skillful.

[DeadBabySoup]

if you're all in several times with marginal hands, you're not going to be successful. most likely, you're re-raising or shoving yourself with AK or TT. better players will keep the pots small and outplay their opponents after the flop. but if you think you can be successful going all in every time you're faced with a coin flip, best of luck to you. hope to see you at my table

[DeadBabySoup]

you're playing too tight.
i actually was on the same table as you when me and my cousin were playing together in a $3 90-man on his account, and i remember a hand where you flatted IP with AK on the early levels and luckily managed to stack AJ or AT or something on an A high board. you need to be 3betting AK all day long, and pretty much never folding it pre in those 90-mans (unless there's a LOT of action before you).

my ROI on $3 90-seat tournaments is in the neighborhood of 100%. but regarding the hand you just mentioned, if i raise preflop with AK, I probably scare off AT. if i don't scare him off preflop, it'll make it much easier for him to get away from top pair after the flop. i'm guessing i got him all in after the flop? that said, i typically do raise 3x bb with AK. but i don't play the same hand the same way every time. that too would be bad strategy. also, as you said it was early in the tournament. i will almost always try to trap early on when the blinds are low. there's no point raising just to pick up 45 chips when you can possibly trap someone and get them to call off their stack.

[phosphorescence]

if you're all in several times with marginal hands, you're not going to be successful. mostly likely, you're re-raising or shoving yourself with AK or TT. better players will keep the pots small and outplay their opponents after the flop. but if you think you can be successful going all in every time you're faced with a coin flip, best of luck to you. hope to see you at my table

i hate sounding arrogant but you've forced me to do it. no i won't see you at your table, because i play much higher than you, because i'm more profitable.
ugh that made me feel dirty, but you were asking for it lol. i'm trying to help improve your game but if you're set in your ways then that's fine, i just don't want other people to read your posts and consider them gospel. because most, if not all, of the best MTT players would disagree with you.

edit: also, AK, QQ and JJ are not marginal hands. they are monsters.

[DeadBabySoup]

edit: also, AK, QQ and JJ are not marginal hands. they are monsters.

AK, QQ and JJ are not monster hands all in preflop. AK is a strong drawing hand. QQ and JJ are coin flips to AK. the only hands i would consider monsters preflop are AA and KK.

ps... read any poker book and it'll tell you to avoid coin flips unless it's absolutely necessary. really, it should be common sense. the only situations where i'd want to be all in on a coin flip are to knock out a short stack. or if i am a short stack and i need to double up. i'll also risk a coin flip when i think a big stack is stealing blinds and i know i'm a coin flip at worst. but you're welcome to your own opinion.