Yet Another Rigged Complaint

[Machine_7]

I am just curious as to who out there feels online poker is rigged. I understand the arguments that people post against it being rigged - online you experience many more hands, more donkeys, luck is part of poker, etc... whatever. So the other day I did a study using pokertracker and have decided to stop playing online poker because of the results.

In one day of playing last week I lost roughly $200. This is perhaps the 8th time in the last two months this has happened. The funny thing is I have never had a win streak, other than the first week or two after opening an account (notice how many people say this happens to them). Also for the record, most people consider me a very good player - I have won 100 people plus tourneys numerous times in live games... read every poker book, played for over 5 years now, studied the odds, have an engineering degree... blah blah blah.

Using Poker tracker, I am negative hundreds of dollars each on pocket aces, pocket kings, and pocket queens. Had each over 20 times. A few days ago I was dealt pocket kings, and of course another player was dealt pocket aces. What is weird though is that is happened again less than 5 minutes later - pocket kings beat by aces again. A few minutes later I was dealt Aces and another guy pocket kings. A king hit on the river. Five minutes after that I was dealt queens, and not only did another guy have kings, a third guy had aces. Seriously folks, I have played tens of thousands of live hands and seen something like this once or twice, not 4 times in 20 minutes. Anyway, here are the results from my study - most hands were from head's up poker tourneys, so only two people involved, making suckouts less likely:

22 big hands played (over $400 in chips or greater with starting stack $1500)
I won 3 hands, opponenets won 19
I was ahead on 14 of the 22 hands when money went in.
Of the 14 hands I was ahead on, I ended up losing 12 of them.
Of the 8 hands my opponents were ahead on, they won 7 of them.
8 of my opponent wins he had less than 25% odds of winning the hand.

Now ok, maybe this is a bad luck streak. Now explain how this happens to me every time I play for the last two months. I have lost well over $1G in 2 months, and am now thinking it really is rigged. The software would be very easy to rig, and nobody audits it. The people who say we complainers are bad players or unlucky probably work for the site to encourage you to play. If i were you I would stay away. If anyone has any REAL stories about having both good and bad luck online, please let me know what site. I have used pokertracker to monitor the play of hundreds of players on UB over the last 3 months, and find that 90% of players are losing money. This tells me one thing, all profits are eventually going to the casino through the rake, and they keep the odds even by making sure the good players end up getting sucked out more often, to keep the bad players playing. In the end the casinos make much more money this way. That's my theory anyway. If anyone can explain to me how it is possible to have conitinuous and nearly unbelievable luck happen to them hundreds of sessions over the last 6 months without a single winning streak, I am all ears.

An ex-online poker player

[travz21]

I really, really, really, really hope you become an ex-threadstarter.

You have multiple absolutely moronic points that just destroys your credibility as a logical poker player. To put it boldly, they make you sound retarded. ALL PROFITS do go to the poker site you are playing on. The site's income is based a whopping 0% on their players' winrate. However, it is mainly based on how many players they round up to play there via promotions, commercials, street talk, etc....so them rigging hands would significantly hurt how many players want to play there. It's just something that isn't logical. Poker sites rigging hands is such an unprofitable play on their part.

Also, sites are audited. Stop making things up to back up your invalid posts. Whatever you need to hear to get you to stop saying things like this, let us know. Examples..."You are the unluckiest player in the world", "It is just your fate to be outdrawn", "You're really good at minimizing your losses", or "Keep it up, you won't always be drawing dead".

Anyone feel free to copy/paste anything in this post to save time while dealing with others of this caliber.

[phaul]

Using Poker tracker, I am negative hundreds of dollars each on pocket aces, pocket kings, and pocket queens. Had each over 20 times.

Hahahahah! Even if you'd had each 25 times that'd be a sample size of roughly 5500 hands! Every single winning player I know has had a downswing longer than that! I know a 25/50 pro who puts in 30k/40k-hand months and has had several losing months. You need to get over it. And don't say I don't understand, I'm currently on a 45-buyin downswing at SnGs and have had to move down as a result.

Also, quoting real $ doesn't tell us anything if you don't say what stakes you play.

[RiverstarsVictim]

Yeah I see what the problem is.

most hands were from head's up poker tourneys, so only two people involved, making suckouts less likely:

a third guy had aces.

You play so bad people from other tables call you

[gorden71]

You mention UB, is this the only site you play on? No matter where you play youll hear the conspiracy theories, but the simple fact is the sites have absolutely nothing to gain from rigging the games. If you believe they do, then what criteria do you think they use to pick the winners? Get yourself a bigger sample size and take an honest look at how you played, I guarantee youll find something there that makes more sense than the sites being rigged.

LMAO@ Riverstars Victim comment!!!!

[LyndaNova]

Online poker is not rigged and anyone who thinks so has the right to choose NOT to play. This argument grows very tiresome.

[travz21]

I'm not going to do simple research for you, man. And 12k hands is barely anything. I can play those in a couple days and be down 10 buyins easily if I run cold. Don't single table and get in 100 hands a day and your cold streak won't last as long.

[C8H10N4O2]

I await a solid reply based on fact and not purely emotional backing.

Hahaha, 5,500 hands = fact. Hahahahahaha. Hahahahaha... I honestly can't stop.

Thanks buddy, I was needing a laugh.

[RiverstarsVictim]

Please notice my post was backed by facts. Your response I appreciate however you are backing it with no fact. It is all your opinion. Can you please provide proof that the sites are audited? Most sites operate off-shore so I understand if you were to somehow get into a legal battle with one of these web sites, you would essentially be going to court with their local jurisdiction.

I await a solid reply basd on fact and not purely emotional backing.

The only facts in your opening post is you haven't provided one shred of evidence to back up your claim that online poker is rigged

How about making your hand histories available for download so we can all see for ourselves?

[deathcard71]

Also for the record, most people consider me a very good player - I have won 100 people plus tourneys numerous times in live games... read every poker book, played for over 5 years now, studied the odds, have an engineering degree... blah blah blah.

live vs. online is like comparing apples to oranges. take a hard look at many solid players that started online and then played live for the 1st time... they had to adjust their game and learn new skills to succeed. it's a different world.

with that said, the transition from live to online should be much easier than online to live.
i say that because the ability to read players body language is a skill that takes months/years to acquire and some peeps will never have a clue.

I'm more likely to believe that your poker skills are weaker than you think. when you stop wasting your time (and ours) by blaming others (rigged sites, in your opinion) and start working to improve your poker skills, then... and only then will you see your downswing turn around.

An ex-online poker player

guess i typed all that for nothing... LOL later

[Derivatix]

I simply cannot believe that poker sites are rigged or that they are not audited.

I can also prove your "facts" are wrong:

1. As happened to you I also was dealt pocket kings several times, and of course another player was dealt pocket aces, I lost with my kings.
2. I was also dealt Poket Aces, another player won with trips receiving the Queen on the river.
3. I am NOT a good poker player, I simply do not play enough.

See? According to your "facts" me being a lousy player I should have won most of those hands.

But I do understand that loosing streaks can be VERY frustrating. Happened today to me, loosing a SNG twice on 4th place because the river hit. So what, that's poker!

Greets
Deri

[iceveins0901]

Over December, my last actually BAD month, I have almost 9k hands

AA 39 times, -12 Big Blinds
KK 34 times, +380 BB
QQ 47 times, -230 BB
JJ 41 times, -18 BB

Now I do realize that I had quite a few problems in my life that month, and I know that some of my sessions I did tilt easy and spew my chips away. Besides a bad run, I did lose much more than I really should have, overall being down about 8 buyins. This is just one month, we can find other months that I am up over 10 buyins, and my AA had won over 95% of the time, it is called Variance, not Rigged.

(dont hate on the numbers, my cash game stats show me as much tighter than average on starting hand selection, yet I apparently call down too much, two big leaks that are noticable if graphed out, and I am working on them.) http://www.pokertableratings.com/ - Good Tool for Cash Gamers.

[GreaseStain]

Get a sample of like 100,000 - 200,000 hands and we will put more thought into what you say

[frob23]

http://www.pokertableratings.com/ - Good Tool for Cash Gamers.

Very interesting site. But it's not much use for me because I'm a micro limit player and it only watches $100NL and up. But still very interesting.

[phaul]

My sample size is roughly 5,500 cash hands, mainly $0.50 / $1.00 NL, and 7,000 tourney hands, 50/50 mix of heads up and 9 man Sit and Go's. So I hardly believe the sample size is small enough to be a bad luck streak. This is the amount of hands I have recorded in the last three months. Prior to that was another three month period where the same thing happened. However you could essentially double this since I have had a 6 month losing streak, and only 3 months of this is recorded with pokertracker. The five years prior to this I have experienced both good and bad runs on live tables...

Firstly, tourneys and SnGs are measured by number played, not number of hands. Secondly, when you said you'd lost $200 in a day, that's a whopping TWO BUYINS!!!!!! NO WAI!!!!!!!!!!

Thirdly, this is definitely small enough to be variance (see my previous post). 7000 tourney hands would be at absolute maximum 140 SnGs/tourneys, which is an unbelievably small sample, as is 5500 cash game hands. Come back after 5000 tourneys or 100,000k cash hands and we'll be a little more sympathetic.

[liladypokerpro]

Courtesy of Online Poker FAQ:

Independent Auditing

"Claiming to use a fair algorithm is one thing, but how do you know that is actually what is going on inside the poker server? To answer this question, the top sites have engaged independent auditing companies to inspect their source code and deployment procedures and to make surprise inspections at later dates. For example, PriceWaterhouseCoopers reviews the card shuffling at Paradise Poker on a quarterly basis and two separate auditors stand behind the code at Poker Stars. The other major sites have passed similar audits."

Just a little tid bit to add, since proof was requested that poker sites get audited...

/

[Fictive]

You know... Just yesterday, for a fraction of a millisecond, I felt like screaming out loud "RIGGED". Why? Because in yesterdays session (1,328 hands courtesy of PT) I was holding KK 3 times when against AA, and once AA against KK only to be sucked out on. Trust me... Shit happens, but it is not rigged.

[Fictive]

Had to come back to this thread quickly. I started today's session a while back. About 15 minutes in to the session , I've been dealt KK twice. Both times against AA. The other time I did suck out, but it was against a short stack player. Still... it's not rigged...

[Fictive]

Got to visit this again...

Finished my session, 986 hands.

AA: dealt 3 times. Got the blinds 3 times.
KK: dealt 7 times. 4 times out of 7, against AA . Sucked out once.

I got to say, this is getting pretty ridiculous. I'm running against the odds big time with kings. I better even out soon and start to be the one holding the rockets in those situations.

To put things into perspective, here's the odds, loaned from another website:

For a 10-player table, we see that the odds of AA being out when you hold KK is about 21.8-to-1, or 1 in 22.8. Since we get dealt KK 1 time in 221 hands on average, to get the overall probability of being dealt KK and facing AA we multiply 22.8 by 221 to get about 1 in 5039.

[raysdeals]

RIGGED....you have out think the computer.

Chip leader has advantage on most hands reqardless of pre-flop or flop.

This is a BUSINESS, make no doubt about it.

The faster they "the poker site" clear the server, the faster you 'might' and "normally will" buy into another SNG and thus they "the site" make more money.

Thank the lord for Rakeback so at least I get some of it back!

FULLTILT is the WORST of the ones' I've played. Ultimatebet and Poker Stars are bad too.

Forget playing BJ on Ultimatebet. You'll win a few and as soon as you press your winnings...BYE BYE MONEY!