Very difficult situation in PLO

[thegrizz1111]

Ive been all in 3 handed with AA rag rag a few times preflop recently and lost every time. I would think my these people are donkeys and I am unlucky. Then i ran some simulations. Heads up AAxx is always favored preflop but this is not the case when there is three way action and can often times be the third best hand and a significant underdog. Here are some simulation results

Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
AdAc4h9s 32.19% 211,798 0
KcKhTdTs 31.48% 207,140 0
7c6h5s4d 36.33% 239,070 0

In this situation AA is just slightly negative ev and with the money already in the pot all in is prolly the right play.

However if you change the kK to JJ and double suit both the hands AA is a huge dog
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
AdAc4h9s 24.01% 157,958 0
JcJsTcTs 41.70% 274,407 0
7h6h5d4d 34.29% 225,643 0


here is another situation that could end up in a 3 way all in

Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
AdAc4h9s 21.20% 139,523 0
AsKcQcTs 36.20% 238,186 0
7h6h5d4d 42.60% 280,299 0


once again AA is a huge dog and next the results with all hands unsuited

Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
AdAc4h9s 29.07% 191,283 0
AsKcQhTd 30.53% 200,913 0
7c6s5h4d 40.40% 265,812 0


So it turns out that when i am shoving with AA in a 3 way pot i am acutally putting my money in bad. Thats great to know but this makes the hand extremely difficult to play. Folding AA doesnt seem like a good thing. reraising doesnt seem to be good either because often times both other players will figure its split aces im prolly +ev and want to shove (and they are actually +ev on the shove). flat calling is also horrible as you dont figure to be getting the correct implied odds on hitting the ace.


I really think that if facing a raise and a reraise floding AA may be the right play. One problem is if one of the intial raiser folded then you would actually be folding a hand that would be favored.


another issue is facing just a raise and a call. a reraise could win you the pot, get you two calls, or end up having you all in (either heads as a favorite or three handed as a dog). In early postion ( with the raises behind you) i think it is prolly a fold. in last position i think it is just a flat call.

please post your opinions and feel free to call me crazy for saying AA is a fold preflop
if you like.


(All this discussion is only pertaining AA unsuited and two non connecting cards.)

[jomeyer]

AA unsuited with two non connecting cards is what most PLO players would call "bad aces". It is no secret that 1 pair will rarely win a showdown in PLO. Whether or not this hand makes or loses you money depends on how you play it.

When you have "bad aces", the ways your hand can improve after the flop are very limited. You are really looking to spike top set, or get a low paired board like T 2 2. That said, you should probably not be reraising with this hand preflop, especially if you're out of position against multiple opponents. Try to see the flop cheaply and spike your set, then do some betting. This may even get you payed off more, since people won't suspect you to have aces since you didn't reraise preflop.

I think that the idea of folding aces preflop is ludicrous, although if you were facing a few players willing to get it in preflop and you have the bad aces I could see laying them down since at this point you are simply hoping your opponents don't improve. When two or more players are betting at you, there is also the chance that you are getting your aces allin against better aces- a disastrous situation since they will have a much larger scoop percentage than you.

[ngtmarpete]

Me personally I hate pocker A's. You need to also remember that regardless of how many hands are in the bet, the chances of tripling up your pocket pair is only 16%. I just think it is so funny when people go all in on a pocket pair.

[gamer4life27]

I have to agree with the fact that "bad aces" are not that good for flop potential. Like previously stated, you are mainly looking to spike top set and probably only top set. Otherwise, you are most likely behind with either a monster draw, two pair, or a flush draw that you don't have with your unsuited aces.

You have to remember, there are many more hand combinations in Omaha. So with aces, in a multi way pot in regular holdem, your chances go down with every drawing possibility hand. The more hands in the pot, the less of a chance it has to win. Here is a little experiment:

Lets run pocket aces against the last hand you put into statistics. Here is how it reads:

(hand) - (win percentage) - (tie percentage)
Ac Ac - 32.71% - 0.36%
9s 4h - 5.44% - 0.8%
As 10s - 12.32% - 0.36%
Kc Qc - 16.61% - 0.06%
7h 6h - 17.80% - 0.06%
5d 4d - 13.84% - 0.98%
(poker hand odds provided by: http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-tool...r/texas-holdem)

So against multiple hands in Holdem, aces goes down in percentage wise. Reason being: it is only the highest pair you can get. It is the SECOND worst hand OVER ALL if you don't pair up, get a flush, straight (which you might most likely split with another A x hand), a boat, or something other than just the aces in your hand. With more than one player in the hand, you are looking for an ace, a flush draw, or something because if you don't get this, then you pretty much have to fold because you didn't connect. Why should it be any different in Omaha?

In fact, it should be more strict in Omaha. Like I have stated before, in Omaha, you are up against 8 different 2 card hand combination per person. Don't you think aces will not hold up against that many hands? And that is only one person, imagine the drawing possibilities with two, or more people in the hand? Aces will decrease DRAMATICALLY post flop unless you hit a set. So best way to play aces, isolate one player, or try to take the pot right there. Play aces suited preferably, or with something that might help you with some re-draws. And never, NEVER think that aces are invincible, as they are always being cracked.

[thegrizz1111]

So best way to play aces, isolate one player, or try to take the pot right there. Play aces suited preferably, or with something that might help you with some re-draws. And never, NEVER think that aces are invincible, as they are always being cracked.

I think this is a common answer to playing bad aces. problem is that it is often times impossible to do. If you are in the blind and there is a raise and a call, in order to employ this strategy you would need to repot. But most of the time when you do this you are either going to get two calls or the money goes in. the most likely result is two calls, and two calls is horrible, because now you are out of postition with a terrible multiway hand. you need an ace or you loose the pot. in this situation the repot was negative ev. If the money goes in 3 handed you are almost certain to be a dog so the repot was negative ev. if the money goes in two handed then you are probably ahead (at least at the levels i play right now). I should probably have stated that i am playing full ring .1/.25 plo. at the higher limits you also have to worry more about heads up against better aces but at these limits it is less of a concern.

So i would say that while in theory this idea of attempting to isolate one player is correct, it is virtually impossible to do and will most likely result in you loosing money.

[DeadBabySoup]

it's hard to win a hand with anything less than a full house in PLO. so pocket aces don't really count for much. most players start out playing texas hold 'em and have the mindset that they're the best possible starting hand. in PLO, it's better to have a strong drawing hand.