Value v Pot Control v Protection

[GreaseStain]

Some people were asking for some intelligent (not rigged complaining) posts. So, I guess I have a question. The situation is: good TAG raises from MP, 6 max game. You hold 88 in the BB. You call. Flop comes out, 244. What do you do?

Bet/Fold (Value): I hate this the most, because I feel like so often I am going to get raised by a good player when he has over pairs and air. The only way I get value is if he has 55-77. And still, he has position, he can float me and own me on so many turn and rivers.

Check/Call (Pot Control): This is okay, because he will cbet all the time on this flop. And if he does check behind, he probably has Ace high, and you can just bet the turn and pick it up without worrying too much. I also like it because you aren't risking too much. Of course, the problem is that you are giving away free cards, so, if he cbets, and you call, what do you do when he double barrels a high card on the turn. You know he is going to be bluffing it a lot, but it is still in his range, and he could still have an overpair. I suppose if the guy never triple barrels, you can call turn, and hope the river blanks and get a free show down.

Check/Raise (Protection): I don't like this too much, I feel like we are turning our hand into a bluff. But, it may be the best. We do get to pick off the cbet, when he is bluffing. And when he has a big overpair, he will probably get it in on the flop, so when he raises our check raise, we can fold and lose less than we would if we check called a flop and turn bet. Of course our had doesn't matter, here. We may as well have 72, and if this play is profitable, why not do it all the time with any hand that we defend with. I suppose the difference is when villain just calls our check raise. I think when he just calls, its because he has something like 66-JJ, and the occasional time he has air. We have to check the turn, so, basically, when he has air, he will bet and own us with position. When he has a hand like 66-JJ it's hard to say whether or not he will bet, but I think with a hand like JJ he will bet, and maybe check 99 and down, of course it all depends on what the turn card is. Either way, I fell like unless we have him beat, it is very hard for us to win when he calls our check raise.

Ahhh, I really don't know what to do.

[gamer4life27]

It really depends on the situation. You can not have a set move for a set flop/hand. It varies from person to person, and who they are up against.

If you are playing with a donkey who loves to bet and be aggressive, I would check/call or check/raise any day. It's just like they are giving me free chips. And since I know they are a donkey, they are more often than not going to be betting with air.

If you are playing against a pretty good player, I am check/folding or bet/folding. The reason being is because they think of a much more complicated level than donkeys do. They wonder what you would flat call in the BB with and check on the flop. They will think you either have a big ace, a pocker pair, or are defending your BB and most likely hit that 4 for a set. They will check if they have a mediocre hand, but will bet with a big ace or a pocker pair.

And to put in another factor, it also depends on how you are playing and your table image. This all comes into play each and every hand. But that is as specific as I can get I think.

[travz21]

It does really depend on your reads in a short handed game. Betting out puts you in an incredibly akward spot if they flat call. Check/call is ok, but it gives the villian more streets to outplay you, since he's in position. Check/raising is the easiest move to make, I think. Your hand should be good there way more often than not. However, if you get called, you almost have to give up. There really is no good set answer. You need a good read and you need to know your table image.

The best move, I think, is to raise pf. 88 is strong enough to take control of the hand and take it down right there or on a cbet after the flop or a double barrell if really necessary haha.

[phaul]

Check/Raise (Protection): ... And when he has a big overpair, he will probably get it in on the flop, so when he raises our check raise, we can fold and lose less than we would if we check called a flop and turn bet.

You actually lose roughly the same amount.

I think c/c is standard here against an average SSNL TAG, and is what I'd do against most villains. Only one play is awful here - c/f. If you're doing this, you should definitely be folding pre. A good player will cbet a massive % cos it's such a hard board for you to have hit, especially if it's rainbow, so c/f is just bad.

This situation depends on villain though. If you're doing anything other than c/c flop you really need to have a plan for the hand. For example if villain has a high VPIP but is a weak/loose station post then leading flop is obviously good, with turn and river depending on what hits and how much of a station he is. Leading flop is also good if villain has a tendency to float a lot (but then c/r could be better). You should realise that you're pretty much turning your hand face-up by leading though.

If there's aggressive gameflow then c/r can be good because you don't rep very much, so most of the time you'd have air here meaning vill can float/3bet your c/r a good amount. But you must have a plan for later streets, otherwise you're probably just gonna either fold loads in a bloated pot or spew a lot.

Against most people though just c/c.

[phaul]

Travz, with your logic for either c/r flop or 3-betting pre you have barely any value except for the occasional time he calls your c/r with 33/55/66/77/A2/A-hi, so you're pretty much just pure bluffing. So there's not much difference between doing this with 88 and 72o.

[phaul]

Btw, thanks for initiating some non-retarded discussion, Greasestain.

[travz21]

I don't see the value with Check/calling that flop either. Are we talking about a standard TAG villian? I don't see him bluffing off any more into the pot on the turn or river, so you're just giving him 2 more free cards. Check/calling seems like such a weak play against a standard TAG. Against other opponents, it could very well be the best option.

Flatting pf instead of 3betting seems borderline passive, as well.

I'll admit 6-max is not my strong suit, so enlighten me.

[GreaseStain]

I don't like 3betting pre flop, because, if he 4bets, you have to fold. So, you risk not only getting bluffed off the hand, but also, you don't get to see a flop against QQ+, which sucks. You completely eliminate all of the value in set mining. Also, when he does just flat call, you end up having to play a huge pot out of position.

[phaul]

3betting pre seems quite bad, I don't really want to turn 88 into a bluff and it's just not strong enough to value raise.

There doesn't seem like much value in c/r vs a "standard" tag, I prefer c/c, let him cbet and re-eval on later streets depending on what hits and how aggressive you think he is. Another reason though why being OOP sucks