durrrr

[DeadBabySoup]

i was watching watching my friend play the daily dollar last night (he took second for $1000) and saw durrrr and antonius going at it. over about 2 hours, durrrr cleaned him out on 4 tables. i didn't see it from the beginning, so i didn't see all the buy ins and reloads, but at the end of the session, durrrr had about $2,000,000 in front of him. then he played ivey and took at least half a million off him. he was hitting gut shots all in for $200,000 at a time. it was probably the sickest thing i've ever seen.

[liladypokerpro]

I'm still not entirely sure what to think about Tom Dwan... He pulls some seriously donkish stuff, and frequently... Just watching him on high stakes poker made my stomach flip, and even the others were making fun of him indirectly... every time someone lost to him Daniel was like "You got durrrred" LOL and next thing you know they were all laughing and saying it. I dunno, I think that kid is just uber lucky more than anything else, and since nobody else seems to play the way he does, it totally throws off the others, so they don't know how to combat his unorthodox plays. Or, conversely, if they do call him and he's got some junk he ends up catching lucky on them. I dunno, he's just unorthodox...

[phaul]

I'm still not entirely sure what to think about Tom Dwan... He pulls some seriously donkish stuff, and frequently... Just watching him on high stakes poker made my stomach flip, and even the others were making fun of him indirectly... every time someone lost to him Daniel was like "You got durrrred" LOL and next thing you know they were all laughing and saying it. I dunno, I think that kid is just uber lucky more than anything else, and since nobody else seems to play the way he does, it totally throws off the others, so they don't know how to combat his unorthodox plays. Or, conversely, if they do call him and he's got some junk he ends up catching lucky on them. I dunno, he's just unorthodox...

Huh? I didn't watch the second half of the series, but apart from one mistimed squeeze I remember, he seemed to do nearly everything right. Can you give some examples?

Lol Negreanu has no right to talk, he does retarded stuff all the time, Dwan's miles better than he ever will be.

[gamer4life27]

Huh? I didn't watch the second half of the series, but apart from one mistimed squeeze I remember, he seemed to do nearly everything right. Can you give some examples?

Lol Negreanu has no right to talk, he does retarded stuff all the time, Dwan's miles better than he ever will be.

LMFAO! That is the most LAUGHABLE comment I have EVER seen. To think Dwan is better than Daniel, and that Daniel is more of a donkey that Dwan. LMFAO is all I can say.

Bty, I only watched a few hands of his play on High Stakes Poker when watching it and found lilady's comment true. And if you think Dwan is doing everything right and Daniel or anyone else is playing like/more donkishly than him then maybe you need to rethink your play.

[C8H10N4O2]

Dwan has game, and that's really the bottom line. Who else could get Barry Greenstein to call/go all in with J9o with hitting only a J on the flop against AA? Dwan plays the style he does and isn't scared to bluff $100k+ when he senses weakness. People all have trouble putting him on hands because he's also capable of making the same plays with the nuts. He's tearing up the higher stakes because he has found a way to play in a style that the other regulars at those stakes are not sure how to combat.

As for Tom vs Antonius...
This has been a news/promotion thing for Full Tilt since February. You can check on the current stats at fulltilt. They are playing 50k hands over 4 tables and have played like 14k or so now.
http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/durrrr-vs-antonius



Gamer-

The funny thing, listen to some of the pro's talk. No one is sitting around saying Tom is a donk. Daniel is definitely not saying that. You also have to realize "a few hands" of a televised event gives you absolutely no information about the metagame going on or anything else. Listen to some of the people who were playing at the table for this last season of high stakes. I've heard several interviews and others in the higher limits comments about the play, and not one said Tom was playing poorly at all. Just because you get a sample size of "a few hands" out of a game that lasted hours-days (there were multiple days of filming for the entire season) doesn't mean you can accurately analyze his game or the game he was playing in.

[EliminateU]

Huh? I didn't watch the second half of the series, but apart from one mistimed squeeze I remember, he seemed to do nearly everything right. Can you give some examples?

Lol Negreanu has no right to talk, he does retarded stuff all the time, Dwan's miles better than he ever will be.

That was funny. 2 years of luckboxing vs. 10-12 years of solid results

[liladypokerpro]

Dew, while I don't entirely disagree, you're basically describing him as doing what the majority of micro stakes players do on a regular basis, yet we have no qualms about calling them donks... Are you suggesting that because he has a monster bankroll, it's okay and makes him a good player? I'm just curious because I've only seen him make the iffy plays more often than not. I dunno, I'm just trying to decide whether he knows what he's doing or if he's just a total lucksack...

[travz21]

I have to back phaul up 100%. Dwan plays the players like nobody else in the world. He is the master of playing position and totally controlling the table. How anyone can say he's a luckbox over millions of hands is beyond me. He plays a similar style to Negreanu, I just think he's better at knowing when to apply pressure. Dwan makes so many perfect moves that it disgusts me. I guess most everyone else (people way worse than him) just chalks it up to donkish plays though. He just plays so many hands that it seems like he's making more mistakes per hand than everyone else, even though it's not that way.

I've never once heard a big name pro, besides Hellmuth (sucks at cash anyways), who said that Dwan shouldn't be where he's at right now.

[DeadBabySoup]

i've watched a couple of their sessions. you'll respect him a little more watching him play 100 hands per hour per table on 4 tables. it's a totally different game than what you see on tv. a lot of his "donkish" moves are intentional i think. you can't put him on a hand when he shoves all in. so he usually gets paid off with the nuts.

daniel is a strange player to compare him to. daniel plays some creative hands. but he's very methodical and thinks things through. that makes him a great live player. he'd probably crush durrrr live. but i don't think he could handle durrrr online. i can't see him playing at that pace.

[phaul]

1. I think Dwan's actually played millions of hands over 7 years or s/th, which is a lot more respectable than winning live tourneys.

2. Dwan is one of the most feared players in online HSP, while at the highest stakes Negreanu is considered a fish.

3. Can anyone actually give me an example of a hand Dwan played "donkishly"?

4. What Dew and travz each said in their final paragraphs.

5. If Negreanu is so much better than Dwan, why didn't he take him up on his challenge? 3-1 odds, large sample size; easy money right?

[DeadBabySoup]

the way i see it, online poker and live poker are two different games. a good analogy is running. if you were to ask who's the best runner in the world. you could answer with the fastest sprinter. or you could say it's the fastest marathon runner. both are valid answers. but to compare one to the other is pointless. daniel negreanu is one of the best marathon runners of poker. durrrr is one of the best sprinters. but that doesn't make one better than the other in my opinion.

[C8H10N4O2]

Dew, while I don't entirely disagree, you're basically describing him as doing what the majority of micro stakes players do on a regular basis, yet we have no qualms about calling them donks... Are you suggesting that because he has a monster bankroll, it's okay and makes him a good player? I'm just curious because I've only seen him make the iffy plays more often than not. I dunno, I'm just trying to decide whether he knows what he's doing or if he's just a total lucksack...

He's played more hand than Doyle. I don't believe in "luck" when it's over millions of hands. I just don't think any of us on this forum can understand what exactly he is doing, because we aren't involved in the big games like that. Yes, 5 betting Howard with 86 vs AK was "dumb", but I 100% believe he would have bluffed on the turn if he hadn't caught the 8. Howard is too tight to call with AK at that point. I think Dwan checked the turn because he had acquired showdown value. I've listened to so many interviews that have had comments and stuff about Durrrr. He's created a brilliant image and gets his big hands paid off more often than not because of this image. His "iffy" plays would be stupid at the lower limits, but when people are sitting with $200k behind them, his "iffy" plays have started showing a huge profit. Tom worked his way up through the stakes to playing the largest stakes. I have a very hard time calling him a donk because of a few "iffy" plays that make the T.V. cut. Additionally, in some interviews with Tom, it's amazing how intelligent he is. When he recounts his hands, he remembers his exact bet sizes and everything that is going on at the table. If you watch too, he rarely bets even amounts... it's always like $42,650 and crap like that, yet if he's asked about a hand, he'll recount it to the exact $ more often than not. I fully believe Tom knows how to adjust to the table he is playing, and when he is playing against a bunch of orthodox players, he plays very unorthodox because it makes him money.

[liladypokerpro]

Thank you, dew. I knew I'd get a sensible answer out of you, that's why I asked you. I don't get to see enough television to know for sure or to watch him play for hours on end like some more fortunate people. All I get to see are the clips of shows that are posted on pokertube and youtube, or whatever gets put into the Card Player magazine. That is why I asked for an explanation because I was curious to get a more in-depth picture of him from someone I know is not just a balls-to-the-wall fan trying to make a point. It sounds to me like he's got a mental capacity for recalling great detail and capitalizing on it. That is definitely a skill that can exploit the masses. Thanks again. Also, thanks to DeadBabySoup as well, your answer also gave me a little more insight into mister "durrrr."

[travz21]

Yeah, my answer wasn't helpful at all.

[C8H10N4O2]

No problem. Glad I could help. College years=wasting unorthodox amounts of time procrastinating. Whether that makes me fortunate or unfortunate I'm not sure.

[liladypokerpro]

Yeah, my answer wasn't helpful at all.

LOL travz, are you ever the least bit cheerful? I simply missed your last reply, but this one had me going back to look at it, and YES it was helpful and insightful. Thanks, to you too... lol

[phaul]

Yeah, my answer wasn't helpful at all.

^^ This ^^

Sorry for my pointed response, I went on the defensive after being openly laughed at for what seemed like a reasonable statement.

[GreaseStain]

Dwan is without a doubt the best player. If Daniel Negreanu (whom I love) is better, why would he not take the "Durrrr challenge?" (50K hands, at 200/400+ if Dwan wins, he get's 500K, if he loses, he pays 1.5M) Even if a great player thought Dwan was only a little better than them, this would be such a great bet to take. But they aren't, the players speak for themselves, the best players are afraid to play him. Only Antonius, Benyamine, and Ivey are willing to take it, and they are the only people close. Also, Phil Galfond is very good too.

[phaul]

Dwan is without a doubt the best player. If Daniel Negreanu (whom I love) is better, why would he not take the "Durrrr challenge?" (50K hands, at 200/400+ if Dwan wins, he get's 500K, if he loses, he pays 1.5M) Even if a great player thought Dwan was only a little better than them, this would be such a great bet to take. But they aren't, the players speak for themselves, the best players are afraid to play him. Only Antonius, Benyamine, and Ivey are willing to take it, and they are the only people close. Also, Phil Galfond is very good too.

Apparently Dwan had to do some dares to stop Galfond taking the bet.

[HeyKidMove]

Apparently Dwan had to do some dares to stop Galfond taking the bet.

I thought it was in the rules that Galfond wasn't able to take the bet.