these 2 hands cost me the tourney!

[baggeddakota]

i was doing pretty well. sitting comfortable about 4th with 20 people left. i think i made a couple bad moves and ended up getting knocked out. how would you play these 2 hands...IF you would have played them at all.

Full Tilt Poker, $1 + $0.25 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 80/160 Blinds, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP1: 4,570
MP2: 4,420
CO: 4,205
BTN: 2,105
SB: 4,060
Hero (BB): 4,980
UTG: 3,240
UTG+1: 2,875
UTG+2: 1,690

Pre-Flop: (240) 7 2 dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG calls 160, 4 folds, CO calls 160, 2 folds, Hero checks

Flop: (560) 9 7 Q (3 Players)
Hero bets 640, UTG calls 640, CO folds

Turn: (1,840) Q (2 Players)
Hero checks, UTG bets 480, Hero folds

Results: 1,840 Pot
UTG mucked and WON 1,840 (+1,040 NET)


Full Tilt Poker, $1 + $0.25 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 100/200 Blinds, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG+1: 5,070
MP1: 4,120
MP2: 5,745
CO: 4,410
BTN: 2,715
Hero (SB): 4,200
BB: 4,040
UTG: 1,845

Pre-Flop: (300) 4 A dealt to Hero (SB)
4 folds, CO raises to 400, BTN folds, Hero calls 300, BB folds

Flop: (1,000) A 8 6 (2 Players)
Hero bets 1,000, CO calls 1,000

Turn: (3,000) T (2 Players)
Hero bets 2,800 and is All-In, CO calls 2,800

River: (8,600) J (2 Players - 1 is All-In)


Results: 8,600 Pot
CO showed A T (two pair, Aces and Tens) and WON 8,600 (+4,400 NET)
Hero showed 4 A (a pair of Aces) and LOST (-4,200 NET)

[ph1shman420]

fold pre..........

[baggeddakota]

well on the 2nd hand i should have because i was SB and the pot was opened before me.
but the first hand i was BB and it was limped...

so should i just have check folded the first hand?

[DeadBabySoup]

check then fold the first hand. fold the second hand.

[phaul]

You literally made nearly the worst possible play on a lot of streets here. Fold A4 pre. It's a horrible hand, you're dominated so often and hit so rarely. Once you're there, what are you trying to achieve by potting the flop in hand 2?

[gamer4life27]

Those are two simple mistakes made by players who are too involved into their hands and not thinking about their opponents.

Lets look at the first hand:

7 2 is, or course, the worse starting hand on Holdem. So knowing this, you most likely are not going to hit the board. And even when you do, it won't be a hard like.

When UTG calls, this is very fishy to me. You have to put him on premium hands, but not huge pocket pairs as he didn't raise pre. And his call on the flop means he likes to slow play big hands.

So knowing UTG limped, plus CO, why are you going to bet bottom pair bottom kicker with the chip lead OOP? Espically such a huge raise? Just check/fold it. Even if someone is bluffing, they can catch so many ways to beat your bottom pair. And if they are bluffing, you only gave up your BB without any contention. This will make people think you are very passive in your blinds and they will bet into your blinds with ok hands, and when you play back at them, they are basically giving you chips.

Now for the second hand:

Blinds are not extremly high for CO to be trying to steal the blinds. So his min raise is very suspicious, as most players would raise it more to get the blinds off their hands if they want to steal them.

Knowing this, he also has position (given button doesn't call). And for button to be almost on the short stack and 2nd to last in chips at the table, they will rarely call anything.

Now, A 4 is a pretty strong hand... in short handed play. In 9 handed play, it's either raise in position or fold. Why would you call A 4 OOP with 21 BB's? Fold your SB and wait for another spot to play an ace rag. If you want to call, and hit an ace, then you always have to think the other person has you out kicked. That is why it is not strong in 9 handed play. It's even semi-decent in 6 handed play.

And after he called your 1k bet (which bty, was again, WAY too much to bet as either a feeler bet or a bluff. When OOP, you want to control the pot and gain that control. Betting with the first card isn't the way to do that. Maybe check/raise or check/calling is more fearfull. But again, with his min raise, you know he has something. I would not even call pre flop, but on the flop, I would either check/call (depending if I think he bluffing or I want to push him off the hand) or check/fold. I would not bet outright here as you want to see if he has you outkicked.

[baggeddakota]

thanks for all the advice. i definitely never play 7 2 but i was bb so why not check? after that though was a pretty bad play. i was too caught up in trying to bluff him out to get some chips back

[phaul]

The point I was trying to get you to think about was that when you pot the flop with A4 you don't ever get called by anything you beat. So you're just bluffing. If you check, you allow him to cbet lots of stuff you beat, like KQ, KJ, pocket pairs.

[baggeddakota]

so thats what was going through there head...and not mine. is that most the time if not all the time if someone pots the flop with a call pre than they are most likely bluffing or have a high card to draw out to?

[frecklers]

so thats what was going through there head...and not mine. is that most the time if not all the time if someone pots the flop with a call pre than they are most likely bluffing or have a high card to draw out to?

What Phaul is saying is that betting out pot with A4 when u have hit the A is effectively a bluff as opposed to a bet for value i.e. you may as well make this bet with 72 off (in fact making the bet with 7-2 off would probably have more value as you have something to gain from the bet). In the situation described however, you should look at your hand as a bluff catcher.

Ideally you would be looking to check to the river and then perhaps (depending on the board texture) make a small value bet OR call a small bet from your opponent.

Every time you make a bet you should be assessing whether the amount you bet justifies a call from a worse hand (hence you need to establish your opponents likely range and how hard he might have hit the board) OR whether your bet has a chance of making a better hand fold.

If you cannot either make a better hand fold or make a worse hand call then there is very little point in betting at all. Obviously this is slightly oversimplified as you may bet to control pot size if drawing or simply wanting a cheap showdown.

Looking at both hand examples can you see any reason why a reasonable poker player would call your bets with a hand that you can beat or fold a hand that you cannot? If not then what purpose have your bets served other than to cost you chips?

[BirdShotKK999]

1st of all i wouldn't have called with A4 (rag) i hardly call with A9 or A8 for that matter ...you have to have a good feel for cards and i dont think A4 is a good feel if u know what i mean ...

[BirdShotKK999]

What Phaul is saying is that betting out pot with A4 when u have hit the A is effectively a bluff as opposed to a bet for value i.e. you may as well make this bet with 72 off (in fact making the bet with 7-2 off would probably have more value as you have something to gain from the bet). In the situation described however, you should look at your hand as a bluff catcher.

Ideally you would be looking to check to the river and then perhaps (depending on the board texture) make a small value bet OR call a small bet from your opponent.

Every time you make a bet you should be assessing whether the amount you bet justifies a call from a worse hand (hence you need to establish your opponents likely range and how hard he might have hit the board) OR whether your bet has a chance of making a better hand fold.

If you cannot either make a better hand fold or make a worse hand call then there is very little point in betting at all. Obviously this is slightly oversimplified as you may bet to control pot size if drawing or simply wanting a cheap showdown.

Looking at both hand examples can you see any reason why a reasonable poker player would call your bets with a hand that you can beat or fold a hand that you cannot? If not then what purpose have your bets served other than to cost you chips?

I agree with u Frecklers ,know doubt.

[Sick_pro]

wow dude that play was not very good.
lol
you have alot to lurn

[deathcard71]

wow dude that play was not very good.
lol
you have alot to lurn

nice post, very helpful!

[baggeddakota]

wow dude that play was not very good.
lol
you have alot to lurn

i have alot to learn about poker....you have alot to learn about english grammer. Thanks for the advice....

[travz21]

I despise people who use "alot".

I'd say the same thing everyone else has said. Fold, Fold, Fold, Fold. Why do people decide to play such bad hands in bad positions? You're not losing money folding bad hands and waiting for good situations, yet people feel the need to play if they haven't seen a flop in awhile. Practice simple discipline and you'll get a lot better.