Help me create a good H.O.R.S.E. guide!

[gamer4life27]

*** Note: I have now broken it down into sections for each topic as all of it put into one post is too long. Until they either make more room for me to post all of this into one post, or they find a better way for me to put it all together, this is how it is going to be. It is a lot of information so read up! ***

I am going to try and create a good H.O.R.S.E. for the beginners to the advanced players. I have started, but I also want some feedback from you guys here at rakeback.

I want some in depth analysis on some of the games. It can even be some improvements on my current stuff that I have written, as long as I get a lot of feedback. And also, please state before if you do or don't want to be mentioned by either name or screen name.

And here is some stuff beginning players might not know, what I have:

Gamer4life27’s guide to H.O.R.S.E.
(Contributions will be noted here, unless wanted to be kept anonymous.)

1. The Basics

In this section, I will explain and cover the basics of the mixed game HORSE. What it means, how to play it, and other basic information.

• http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...439/#post37634 (What is H.O.R.S.E.?)
• http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...439/#post37635 (How do I play H.O.R.S.E.?)
• http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...439/#post37637 (Betting Structure in Flop Games)
• http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...439/#post37638 (Betting Structure in Stud Games)

2. Limit Strategy

This section will explain the importance of limit in each game, and give a little detail on the games in their limit forms.

• http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...439/#post37639 (Limit Holdem)
• http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...439/#post37640 (Limit Omaha H/L)
• http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...439/#post37641 (Limit Razz)
• http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...439/#post37642 (Limit Stud)
• http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...439/#post37643 (Limit Stud H/L)

3. Basic Strategy

In this section, I will explain the basic strategy needed as the building blocks for HORSE. This section will teach you the starting position so that you can learn on your own if you wanted to. It will give you a basic knowledge needed to play the game on a decent level.

• http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...439/#post37644 (Basic Strategy for Limit Holdem)
• http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...439/#post37646 (Basic Strategy for Limit Omaha H/L)
• http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...439/#post37647 (Basic Strategy for Limit Razz)
• http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...439/#post37648 (Basic Strategy for Limit Stud)
• http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...439/#post37649 (Basic Strategy for Limit Stud H/L)

4. Tournament Strategy

This section will cover the skills needed in tournament HORSE and compare and contrast them to a cash game HORSE environment.

• http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...439/#post37651 (Tournament Strategy)

5. Cash Game Strategy

This section will cover the skills needed in cash game HORSE and compare and contrast them to a tournament HORSE environment.

• http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...439/#post37652 (Cash Game Strategy)

6. Advanced Strategy

This section will cover the more in depth strategy behind HORSE. This section is mainly used for tough spots in HORSE and the higher stakes games. It will teach you how to play HORSE on a more advanced and skillful mindset.

• http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...439/#post37653 (Advanced Tournament Strategy)
• http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...439/#post37654 (Advanced Cash Game Strategy)

p.s. Can someone here at rakeback help me out in editing the titles of the url's?

[pokerbucket]

I think it is really good so far. It is always hard for me to think in the mindset of someone that has no clue how to play the game though. Have you already started on a strategy guide? Do you plan on posting this on a website somewhere?

[liladypokerpro]

Wow Gamer, you've put a lot of effort and thought into this... looks great so far!

One thing I would like to see added (especially for beginners) is a little more explanation in the Razz section as to what they should do when they encounter pairs in their hand.

A lot of people have no clue, depending on the size of the pair, and if there are more than one pair in their hand, what the hell to do LOL so it might be a good little tid-bit to add in, since some pairs are safe to play and others are not... don't want them folding a winner!

[C8H10N4O2]

Nice so far. I really would like to delve into the world of H.O.R.S.E. a little more than I have, but I don't have the strategy knowledge built up yet to really play it too seriously. This is a nice start to a general guide though.

[gamer4life27]

Thank you for all the feedback so far everyone.

pokerbucket - This started out as an idea for a strategy guide and I will work it from there. As of now, I am going from the very basics and working my way up. And I might post the finished product here, or somewhere else. But if I post it somewhere else in whole somewhere, I will be sure to post it here so that more people get to see this guide that people who know the game have given advice from.

Lilady - I will write up a little more in depth section of pairs in razz (well, that I know of) and post it either tomorrow, or thursday.

bty, do you want to be included in the credits of this?

[liladypokerpro]

Nahhhhh this is your baby, it's all you. All I offered was a suggestion, not content.

Can't wait to see the finished product. Like I said it already is looking great.

You should ask Mollila when you're finished if they can post it with the Rakeback articles... that would be cool.

[frob23]

For example, lets say you have A K 4 6 10 3 5. You take your 5 lowest cards (A 4 6 3 5) and arrange them from least to greatest (A 3 4 5 6). This is known as a 6-low.

Some simple advice here. Most people read left to right and the easiest way to avoid mistakes when comparing hand value is to arrange the card greatest to least.

6-5-4-3-A is easier to read as a 6-5 low than A-3-4-5-6.
6-4-3-2-A is easier to see that it beats the 6-5.

Experienced players might not need to arrange the cards like this to avoid errors. But for new players, it tends to help a lot.

I don't know if you're getting into the real strategy of razz but if you are, there is one mistake you can try and fix right now. It is almost never correct to open-limp in razz. This is because it is almost never correct to defend the bring-in. If you are the first person in and you want to play a hand, raise. If someone else limped in and your hand is worth playing, raise. If it folds to you and you're last to act or second to last with the lowest card still showing... raise (even if you have nothing this is generally correct). There are some times where everyone behind you has reasonably strong starting hands where you don't want to raise and be reraised... but that depends on the table and the other players. In general, don't let the bring-in see 4th without paying a full bet. It is really rare that any razz player bothers to defend the bring-in and it is almost always a mistake if they do. I see passive play on 3rd far too often in razz and the bring-in gets a free card.

[frob23]

Once this level is completed, when the blinds go up again, it starts over at Holdem. The process is then repeated over and over.

This is a HORSE tournament guide? It seemed general enough to apply to both cash and tournament games. That changes things because if you're going to include strategy you will need to discuss short-stack limit strategy for all these games as well as short-handed should you get down to a few people.

Most people stink at limit tournaments... myself included.

[gamer4life27]

Nahhhhh this is your baby, it's all you. All I offered was a suggestion, not content.

That's why I'm here and not cooped up in my room trying to write it. Even if it's suggestions, it's all helpful. It doesn't matter if you caught a typo that might have been in my post, as long as it a great guide that everyone knows that people here at rakeback contributed, that's all that matters.

You should ask Mollila when you're finished if they can post it with the Rakeback articles... that would be cool.

I will do that. That would be cool to see it as an article.

This is a HORSE tournament guide? It seemed general enough to apply to both cash and tournament games. That changes things because if you're going to include strategy you will need to discuss short-stack limit strategy for all these games as well as short-handed should you get down to a few people.

Most people stink at limit tournaments... myself included.

Yeah, that's true about the short-stack limit strategy. But maybe we could start it out as cash and then (if it's helpful enough) work it's way into tournaments.

I am writing up the razz guide a bit more and am going to add onto it tomorrow when I have time with an update.

And bty people, if you don't know the whole strategy of HORSE, but you do know some about a particular game (would be helpful if you knew the strategy in limit form), then post it. Any help for this guide is appreciated. I am asking for everyone's help because I know I can't write it all on my own (in a short amount of time anyways). And if I do, I could probably publish it as a 100 page book in Barns and Noble.

[liladypokerpro]

That's why I'm here and not cooped up in my room trying to write it. Even if it's suggestions, it's all helpful. It doesn't matter if you caught a typo that might have been in my post, as long as it a great guide that everyone knows that people here at rakeback contributed, that's all that matters.

Well, now that you mention it, I didn't want to seem nit-picky, but I did catch a few errors. If you want, when you're finished, I'd be glad to proof-read it and correct any errors for you. Then if you decided to add me as a credit, at least I'd feel like I'd earned it.

[gerhardt]

HEy GAmer4life..
I rate this lay-out 10/10 bud..
I also have a solid knowledge off all the games, but tend to over-rais, and want to dominate too much from the start, but have made subtle changes to my own gameplay, and made 3 final tables this week..
My prob. is RB...I have suggested before they make our weekly FR a limit HORSE, or a limit type game, and make it a bit easier for all players..who only 1nce in a while would like 2 see money, but because there are all in donks out there, who catch one card, and go all in, and because you are not sure whether you're AQ would hold up, you fold....limit type games brings out the best poker players , and not the biggest stack, will re-buy donks that are out there..

Great thread bud

JAHWEH est GROTICA

[gamer4life27]

Updated with the suggestions.

Lilady, feel free to either post or PM me with the typos that you have found.

Mollila and Tuomas, I see that you have thanked my post. Why not contribute? Like I said earlier, even if it is one game that you know about, feel free to post ANYTHING that you think might help an amature, or someone of lower experience than yourself.

And the latter goes for everyone.

[liladypokerpro]

Ok well we had an unexpected series of events at work, so it may be the week after next before I can get to it. Hope that's ok. If not feel free to utilize someone else's help. If you have time to spare, let me know and as soon as I'm free from work, I'll help review the finished piece and send you the edits.

[gamer4life27]

Thats ok lilady. I know I am not the best when it comes to writing (have a lot of grammer typos), but I try my best to express myself with what I know. So that is why I am open for people to correct me, make suggestions, etc.

And good luck at work. Hope all goes well.

[gamer4life27]

HORSE is a mixed game that consists of a total of 5 games played back to back. Each of the games represents each letter in the word HORSE. Those are Holdem, Omaha Eight or Better (a.k.a. Omaha H/L), Razz, Stud, Stud Eight or Better (a.k.a. Stud H/L). They are played in that order, and are switched every time the blinds go up.

HORSE is a limit game. So each game is played with fixed bets. In Holdem and Omaha H/L, they’re no antes. But in Razz, Stud, and Stud H/L, there are antes.

[gamer4life27]

Holdem – The first game you start out by playing is Holdem. If you don’t already know, then Holdem is played where everyone gets two face down cards. There is a dealer button that rotates to the left at the end of every hand. And to the dealers left are the small and big blind. These are forced bets that guarantee action every hand.

The options in limit fashion are either fold, call, or bet. Once everyone has made their decisions, the 3 community cards known as the “flop” come out, and these can be used by everyone. Another round of betting occurs. Once this round has ended, the 4th card known as the turn comes face up. Another round of betting, then the 5th card known as the river comes face up. There are a total of 5 community cards face up in the middle of the table that everyone who is still in the hand can use. One last final round of betting occurs, and the winning hand is decided by the best 5-card poker hand rank.

Omaha H/L – The second game you will be playing is Omaha Eight or Better (a.k.a Omaha High/Low, or Omaha H/L). In this game, you get 4 face down cards instead of two. But you can only use two of your down cards.

For Omaha H/L, the pot is split in half for the person who has the high hand, and the person who has the low hand.

When making the high and low hand, you can use two different sets of cards to make your high hand and low hand.

There are 5 community cards that are dealt in the same fashion is Holdem, with the betting rounds the same as well.

When trying to make a low hand in Omaha, they must be 5 un-paired cards lower than or equal to an 8. They have to be lower than or equal to an 8 because it is Omaha Eight or Better. The eight is the qualifier for the low.

Razz – The third game you will be playing is Razz. This is a stud type of game, meaning everyone gets two cards face down, one face up. One round of betting, then another card face up. This is repeated until there are 4 cards face up. After the 4th card is face up, and that round of betting is complete, one more card is dealt face down. The last and final round of betting occurs here and everyone turns over their down cards.

In razz, the best low hand possible wins. Straights and flushes don’t matter, and ace is considered to be lower than a 2. There is no qualifier for the low hand. The best hand possible in razz is 5 4 3 2 A (a.k.a. 5-low).

When figuring out what your hand is, your take your 5 lowest cards and arrange them from greatest to least. For example, lets say you have A K 4 6 10 3 5. You take your 5 lowest cards (A 4 6 3 5) and arrange them from greatest to least (6 5 4 3 A). This is known as a 6-low.

An easier way to do this is to take your two highest cards and get ride of them. In the example above, you would take out the K and the 10. The highest card of those 5 is your low (giving you the same answer, a 6-low).

Now, let’s say you and someone have a 6-low. To determine whose hand beats whose, you take the next lowest card. For example, lets say Player A has a 6-low (6 5 4 3 A), and Player B has a 6-low (6 4 3 2 A). Player A has a 6, 5-low. And Player B has a 6, 4-low. The 6, 4-low wins as it is lower than 6, 5-low.

Stud – The 4th game you will be playing is Stud. Stud is essentially the same as razz, but instead of the lowest hand, you will be trying to get the highest hand possible. That means that poker hand ranks apply to this game. The person with the best 5-card poker hand in the end wins.

The betting structure is the same as Razz also. You get 3rd street (the two cards face down, and one face up), a round of betting. Then 4th street (4th card total, this one is face up), and another round of betting. 5th street is then dealt (5th card total, this one is face up), and another round of betting. Then 6th street (6th card total, this one is face up), and another round of betting. 7th street (7th card total, this one is dealt face down), and the last and final round of betting then occurs.

Stud H/L – The last game you will be playing is Stud Eight or Better (a.k.a. Stud High/Low, or Stud H/L). This is essentially the same thing as putting together razz and stud. The pot is split into two, one for the high half, and the other half for the low hand.

In this game, the low hand is 5 un-paired cards lower than or equal to an 8, with an Ace being considered lower than a 2. The best low hand takes half the pot. The other half of the pot is given to the best high hand.

The betting structure is the same as Razz and Stud, and the cards are dealt the same as well.

Once this level is completed, the process starts over at Holdem. The games are then repeated over and over.

[gamer4life27]

In HORSE games, many of them are playing in a limit fashion. You will find some that are Pot Limit, or even No Limit, but those are very rare.

In limit, each round is capped at 4 bets. Meaning during each round of betting, the total number of bets that are allowed to be made is 4. Again, some places may offer more bets, or less, but the normal is 4 bets per round.

In the flop games (Holdem and Omaha H/L), there are a total of 4 betting rounds; one before the flop, one after the flop, one after the turn, and one after the river.

Let’s say that the blinds are 250/500 in Holdem. That means that the small blind would put out 125, and the big blind would put out 250. And since the blinds are “forced bets”, that 250 is considered the first bet.

Pre-flop and post-flop, the increments you can bet in are in the small blind (in the example above, it would be in amounts of 250), no more, no less. So the max amount you could bet in total before the flop (in the example above) is 1,000 (that is 4 bets of 250 each). Same as after the flop.

On the turn and on the river, the increments in which you can bet in is the big blind (in the example above, it would be in amounts of 500), no more, no less. So the max amount you could bet in total on the turn and river would be 2,000 (that is 4 bets of 500 each).

[gamer4life27]

In the stud games (Razz, Stud, and Stud H/L), there are a total of 5 betting rounds; one each on 3rd street, 4th street, 5th street, 6th street, and 7th street.

Let’s say that the blinds are 1,000/2,000 with a 200 ante.

In razz, the person with the highest card showing would have the forced bet of either bring-in, or complete the bet. But in Stud and Stud H/L, the person with the lowest card showing has this option. They can not fold, as the bring-in bet allows action to be present in each and every hand.

A bring-in is when the ante and the bring-in bet total half of the small blind. So in the example above, the bring-in would be 300 (200 + 300 = 500, which is half of the small blind).

To complete the bet means you make it a total of the small blind. This complete bet is considered the first bet.

The first two rounds of betting have to be in increments of the small blind, no more, no less. So that means the max amount you could bet in total on 3rd and 4th street is 4,000 (that is 4 bets of 1,000 each).

For the last 3 rounds, the betting increments must be in the size of the big blind, no more, no less. That means the max amount you could bet in total on 5th, 6th, and 7th street is 8,000 (that is 4 bets of 2,000 each).

Stud has a special quality though. On 4th street, if the person first to act has a pair showing, that means the amount they can bet on 4th street could be either 1,000, or 2,000. This “double-bet” of 2,000 is considered to be one bet. So if someone would want to raise the person who “double-bet”, it would be 2,000 plus the 1,000. The max amount you could bet (with a double-bet”) in total on 4th street in Stud is 5,000 (that is one “double-bet” of 2,000, and 3 bets of 1,000 each).

[gamer4life27]

If you are trying to make the transition from No Limit Holdem to Limit Holdem, there are a few things you should know that are key elements in each game.

The first thing is that it is MUCH harder to bluff in limit that no limit. Now, granted you can still pull off the occasional bluff here or there, but it’s not like No Limit where you can bluff massive amounts of chips at a time. In limit, people are almost always getting the right price to call a single bet the more you bet.

This means that there is a lot more chasing than regular Holdem. Given this, you want to have the best of it going into it most of the time, chase some of the time, and bluff rarely. This means that it is that much harder to steal the blinds from any position because they are always going to get the right pot odds to call.

And just a little note, the higher limits you get into, the more likely you will be able to pull off a big bluff.

[gamer4life27]

In Limit Omaha H/L, you will see a lot more action than with Holdem. That is because not only are you getting more cards, but you are drawing to two pots.

Another factor that plays a big role in why you may see a lot more action in Omaha H/L than Holdem in HORSE is the fact that it’s limit. You are not going to be faced with a pot sized bet by someone who you don’t know is drawing to the high half, the low half, or a scoop.

So be careful in limit Omaha H/L, as you can get yourself in a lot of trouble calling off one bet at a time on draws.

A good way to avoid this in any high/low split pot game is to play hands that have the potential for scooping both the high and low pots. If you don’t try to scoop it once in a while (with either just the high and no qualifying low, or the best high and low hand. This goes for Stud H/L also), then all you are basically doing is splitting the pot to stay even. You either want multi-way action to get more than you invested with either a split, or a scoop.

A scoop is a hand that gives you the whole pot because it’s the best high, as well as the best low.

In Omaha H/L, you can scoop LOADS of times. You can have the nut flush with a very good/nut low. You can have a wheel (which sometimes works for a scoop), or any number of hand combination for scooping with a high and a low.

Another way to get more than half of the pot is to “quarter” someone. To quarter someone means to give them half of half of the pot. This is done by you having both the high and low hand, and they have either the same high hand, or the same low hand and nothing more. When you can do this in limit, it basically cripples your opponent because they are thinking they will have more than what they would have won with a regular split, and give you more room to play with, with those few extra bets.

Another way to scoop the pot is if there is no low out there. This is good if you have a premium/nut high. That is because if there are people drawing to a low hand, then they have to fold in the end because they did not catch anything to split the low half with. Scooping the pot with no low out is another key factor in limit because you gain more than you could have potentially lost in a split. And also, it allows you to win the pot uncontested most of the time.